Ask a question, get an answer

[Art Fawcett]

I stand corrected then
but I was told directly by a former employee of Stetson that there were several steps to the process that have been removed from the felting of their hoods during his time there due to cost and time... and that the demand for felt hoods just does not meet the man power and time that it would take to continue the old process.
he also said that the blends of fur is far weaker than it was

I've been to that plant in Longview Anthony, and I would not dispute the former employee. I'd be curious about which steps. My imagination takes me to the rollers ( compressing the newly felted bodies). Not knowing how many times it was done in the past I can only guess that if it were run through more it might make it denser. If memory is correct Winchester had at least 6 employees doing this process, folding, running through rollers, then refolding in a different way, running through. Jeeze what a boring job. If you can find out what is being left out I'd appreciate the insight. As a side note, when first starting I bought a few dozen bodies from Hatco, used perhaps 3, then sold them to another hatter for half price. I couldn't wait to get them out of my shop. A few years later I was able to go to the plant and left with the affirmation as to why I didn't like them. You would be amazed at how much wool is mixed in with the rabbit ( fur felt hat)

 

[moontheloon]

I've been to that plant in Longview Anthony, and I would not dispute the former employee. I'd be curious about which steps. My imagination takes me to the rollers ( compressing the newly felted bodies). Not knowing how many times it was done in the past I can only guess that if it were run through more it might make it denser. If memory is correct Winchester had at least 6 employees doing this process, folding, running through rollers, then refolding in a different way, running through. Jeeze what a boring job. If you can find out what is being left out I'd appreciate the insight. As a side note, when first starting I bought a few dozen bodies from Hatco, used perhaps 3, then sold them to another hatter for half price. I couldn't wait to get them out of my shop. A few years later I was able to go to the plant and left with the affirmation as to why I didn't like them. You would be amazed at how much wool is mixed in with the rabbit ( fur felt hat)

I could reach out to him and see if he remembers what steps specifically ... he was an employee of Stetson for I believe nearly 50 years retiring in the mid 90s.
I see no reason not to take his word as law ... he dedicated his life to the hat business.
if I am honest I do not know if he is still with us ... it has been some years since we spoke and he was getting up there in age at that time

 

[FedOregon]

As a side note, when first starting I bought a few dozen bodies from Hatco, used perhaps 3, then sold them to another hatter for half price. I couldn't wait to get them out of my shop. A few years later I was able to go to the plant and left with the affirmation as to why I didn't like them. You would be amazed at how much wool is mixed in with the rabbit ( fur felt hat)

That's not cool, at all. I'm so turned off modern hats I swear I won't buy one unless I hold it in my hand and inspect it first... and then it may not pass muster anyway.

 

[Art Fawcett]

Thanks, that would be educational. Let's hope he is still with us.

Stick with customs Doug, off the rack is questionable

 

[Frunobulax]

This is a fantastic discussion. Thanks for weighing in, Art.


Sent directly from my mind to yours.

 

[alanfgag]

I'm sure most of you have seen this, but just in case...

 

[EstherWeis]

I was thinking along the same lines Art.

If you break it down the felting process to it's raw basic steps it hasn't haven't changed much.
Other chemicals ( thank god! ) I'm sure will have an effect. I have mercury felted hoods, the difference is immense.

You can't cut a lot of corners in producing felt. I have seen first hand.

As a user of TONAK I feel that the felt I use is top quality and I can compare with the vintage ones I have. Is it different ?Yes. But better? I'm debating on that one.

Ofcourse there will always be low grade quality felts. People don't know a quality hat when it hits them in the face. That general knowledge just is gone.

All the times I have pissed off other suppliers trying to offer me something and me responding that felt like that is only good for cleaning off a BBQ. Maybe that's why they don't like me

 

[Andykev]

My suspicions on the "quality decline" as discussed here...is that it's the felt, pure and simple. Can't make a great hat out of so-so felt bodies. Back in the day, with many different companies making hats, and literally every person wearing a hat (up until late 50's and certainly the 60's)... manufacturers made quality hats (look at our vintage survivors today). It's "good stuff". Like shoes. Back in the day, a good pair of shoes lasted, you had them resoled, and they were relatively expensive. But necessary as people walked a lot more, took public transportation. Same idea applies to clothing. Art will tell you since he ran a vintage clothing store, that clothes made back in the day were FAR superior in workmanship and material than what you find today. People dressed properly then, not the open collar and dockers business casual of our times. Even men's dress shirts (Arrow shirts) we wore in the 60's lasted. Today's dress shirts are so thin and crappy, they wear out fast.

So, the hat. A good hat needs fur, good quality fur. And fur is expensive. So, today's manufacturer get by with LESS fur and blends with wool to still make a hat, and with proper stiffeners, it's "not bad", but "not great" either. A "modern hat" of today would be considered junk back then. So you can run the hat body thru the same machines used in the 40's, but the resulting product is not as good today, because there is less beaver/quality fur in the body. Before, with so many people wearing hats every day...there was a great supply of fine fur. There isn't any demand, so there isn't a good supply.

In fact, most stuff made today isn't as good as in the "golden era". Washing machines and refrigerators. Eight years is "old" for them, where my mother's washing machine lasted 25 years. Not as efficient perhaps, no "energy star", but it worked well. Clothes are made a whole lot cheaper. Don't even go there with what some people think are "dress shoes". So, except for special order custom hat bodies made ordered by bespoke hatters, who pay quality prices for quality felt....the average "off the shelf" hat today is a poor example compared to the vintage standard. It's all economics, and most telling - The AVERAGE person today doesn't know the difference..since most hats worn today are ball caps.

 

[Cane Rod Maker]

There are a few good choices for hand made, and I'm not pushing me. There is a lot of great talent out there.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[Captain O]

There are a few good choices for hand made, and I'm not pushing me. There is a lot of great talent out there.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Agreed. You will pay more for quality, but its value over 20 years will make itself evident.

 

[moontheloon]

My suspicions on the "quality decline" as discussed here...is that it's the felt, pure and simple. Can't make a great hat out of so-so felt bodies. Back in the day, with many different companies making hats, and literally every person wearing a hat (up until late 50's and certainly the 60's)... manufacturers made quality hats (look at our vintage survivors today). It's "good stuff". Like shoes. Back in the day, a good pair of shoes lasted, you had them resoled, and they were relatively expensive. But necessary as people walked a lot more, took public transportation. Same idea applies to clothing. Art will tell you since he ran a vintage clothing store, that clothes made back in the day were FAR superior in workmanship and material than what you find today. People dressed properly then, not the open collar and dockers business casual of our times. Even men's dress shirts (Arrow shirts) we wore in the 60's lasted. Today's dress shirts are so thin and crappy, they wear out fast.

So, the hat. A good hat needs fur, good quality fur. And fur is expensive. So, today's manufacturer get by with LESS fur and blends with wool to still make a hat, and with proper stiffeners, it's "not bad", but "not great" either. A "modern hat" of today would be considered junk back then. So you can run the hat body thru the same machines used in the 40's, but the resulting product is not as good today, because there is less beaver/quality fur in the body. Before, with so many people wearing hats every day...there was a great supply of fine fur. There isn't any demand, so there isn't a good supply.

In fact, most stuff made today isn't as good as in the "golden era". Washing machines and refrigerators. Eight years is "old" for them, where my mother's washing machine lasted 25 years. Not as efficient perhaps, no "energy star", but it worked well. Clothes are made a whole lot cheaper. Don't even go there with what some people think are "dress shoes". So, except for special order custom hat bodies made ordered by bespoke hatters, who pay quality prices for quality felt....the average "off the shelf" hat today is a poor example compared to the vintage standard. It's all economics, and most telling - The AVERAGE person today doesn't know the difference..since most hats worn today are ball caps.

Well said


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RJR]

Agreed. You will pay more for quality, but its value over 20 years will make itself evident.

+1

 

[Frunobulax]

In fact, most stuff made today isn't as good as in the "golden era".

Yeah, but the smart phones in the 30s and 40s were awful.

 

[Captain O]

Yeah, but the smart phones in the 30s and 40s were awful.

View attachment 74351

Funny!

 

[Cane Rod Maker]

Definitely well said Anthony. I bet you can add to its thoughts. I know one question recently was how does a hatter make his price, and I think they compared it to modern hats. Like you said good felt, real deal stuff, is not cheap and I can have well into one hundred plus dollars invested, just to order one beaver dress weight and when you add to that cost, special requests to the manufacturer for re-sizing, so you can make a 6 inch crown, and still have enough brim for a classic look. Add to that the extra costs for a body in a double yellow string, that is for the 7-3/4 plus size, much more costly. And this one special order costs 32.00 shipping to my shop.

So when you look at what a guy does, as an artist, over a full work week, 7 days for me most of the time; what did he really earn?

And like you said and you nailed it, everything today is from a disposable standpoint. Mass production. Those hats are processed so quickly I am sure. Mass production, where as back then there was a sense of quality and pride in that early American worker was evident.

Your wording, very supportive of the artisans building products, those that are made, with the intention of being here 50 years, or 100 years from now. What ever I make or ever made, I did, so some day, some young person will take it over, and wonder who the heck I was. Not only that, but he says damm, this guy did fabulous work. Dead, but remember and in a sense; because I like to think, I live on in my work, because my heart and soul go into every build. I work a full week for one build and the price for a week of my life, well that is a cheap costing hat, when one considers what one has, to do the job. To tackle the job.

I don't have a spinner table, but I have a good eye, and great hand and feel, and super detail orientated. So my work, it takes more time. But I am striving for that very early American vintage hand made look and feel that we don't see anymore, in general, in this country with off the shelve products. One reason I spend so much time under the hat, that look, is super important to me as well.
I share this picture just as a example, if one unfolded a old stetson, they'll see work like this.

Help keep craftsmen alive, it helps ensure there is always quality out there, if you look for it. Good words, good chat. Back to work for me. Have a good one everyone.!

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[Captain O]

Definitely well said Anthony. I bet you can add to its thoughts. I know one question recently was how does a hatter make his price, and I think they compared it to modern hats. Like you said good felt, real deal stuff, is not cheap and I can have well into one hundred plus dollars invested, just to order one beaver dress weight and when you add to that cost, special requests to the manufacturer for re-sizing, so you can make a 6 inch crown, and still have enough brim for a classic look. Add to that the extra costs for a body in a double yellow string, that is for the 7-3/4 plus size, much more costly. And this one special order costs 32.00 shipping to my shop.

So when you look at what a guy does, as an artist, over a full work week, 7 days for me most of the time; what did he really earn?

And like you said and you nailed it, everything today is from a disposable standpoint. Mass production. Those hats are processed so quickly I am sure. Mass production, where as back then there was a sense of quality and pride in that early American worker was evident.

Your wording, very supportive of the artisans building products, those that are made, with the intention of being here 50 years, or 100 years from now. What ever I make or ever made, I did, so some day, some young person will take it over, and wonder who the heck I was. Not only that, but he says damm, this guy did fabulous work. Dead, but remember and in a sense; because I like to think, I live on in my work, because my heart and soul go into every build. I work a full week for one build and the price for a week of my life, well that is a cheap costing hat, when one considers what one has, to do the job. To tackle the job.

I don't have a spinner table, but I have a good eye, and great hand and feel, and super detail orientated. So my work, it takes more time. But I am striving for that very early American vintage hand made look and feel that we don't see anymore, in general, in this country with off the shelve products. One reason I spend so much time under the hat, that look, is super important to me as well.
I share this picture just as a example, if one unfolded a old stetson, they'll see work like this.

Help keep craftsmen alive, it helps ensure there is always quality out there, if you look for it. Good words, good chat. Back to work for me. Have a good one everyone.!

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Class... pure class!

In the immortal words of George Simpson Patton, "God help me, I love it so!"

 

[Daniele Tanto]

I have some problem to fully understand the meaning of this discussion.
We are talking about a product, the hat, which has a very limited market for at least forty years here in Italy. It is likely that from the moment of greater splendor in the production of hats (50s) come to our hands various hats that are what we want to have as collectors. The market today is scarce by producers, so forcibly, millions of pieces produced over the years become our "reserve" where to fish. We are talking about a millionaire serial production that had gorgeous hats, but also many low quality products. Will we perhaps be able to choose how in the twenties or thirties? It is impossible for a sum of economic and social factors, so we can try to have what we like in the world of hats, having an endless variety of disused objects available. The time factor has determined the offer of a clothing accessory that has very little appeal today. We are pretty lucky because very few have our craze.
All other considerations on the quality of materials and workings are the result of what has been said above.
I live in a small nation that has been the largest exporter of hats in the world and I can say, with good faith, that there are still quality hats, as long as we do not pursue myths.
If, for some of you, the myths are the fifties and the beaver, for me it is the 1920's and the 30's and the felt produced here in Italy
Also because this was the golden age for the production of Italian hats, but very few of them remain

 

[Redfokker]

That's not cool, at all. I'm so turned off modern hats I swear I won't buy one unless I hold it in my hand and inspect it first... and then it may not pass muster anyway.

My Haberdasher ordered a modern Strat in silverbelly after I put one on my Christmas Wish List in his shop. I feel kind of bad about it now. I've only quickly looked at it, put it on and gave it back. He has the full boat $180 price on it, so, I hope he does move it.

 

[moontheloon]

it really comes down to two things in my opinion ... demand and competition

there is no demand for quality hats so people settle for whatever a given major conglomerate that basically ate up every major hat company's name puts out

and second ... the fact that these companies who used to be in competition are all basically just a name made by the same company there is no competition

competition is a huge part of what kept hats in the golden years wonderful

everyone was trying to out do each other ... trying to get the most dense felt ... the lightest weight hats ... the highest quality product at the best price point ... that is why we see so many "clones" ... all the wonderful model names ... all the gorgeous ads ...

all these companies were heavily protecting the proprietary secrets to their formulas and process from each other

those are the things that made the product great

all of that is gone ... and with it the quality

as I said in my first post in this discussion (see above) ... I still believe it comes down to demand and competition....

Sprinkle in cutting a few corners and bad blends and you have modern fur felt hats

Also ... I believe in 1950 you could buy a Whippet for around $10.00
... if I am not mistaken that equals about $103.00 today

a common price for a Stetson open crown hat that would be considered an equal but factoring in today's low standards is around $245.00 to $300.00

Not only are they offering a far inferior product but they are charging 3X what they once charged for a hat.... and a far lesser product

Why? ... because there is no demand so the bottom line has to meet up by less hat sales

so us... the hat consumer loses on all levels

I believe we would see a slight decrease in price and a better product if there was more demand.... if there was more demand there might actually be a little competition

another reason to go Custom and support a man or woman who personally crafted your hat with his or her hands to your personal specifications


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Cane Rod Maker]

I have some problem to fully understand the meaning of this discussion.
We are talking about a product, the hat, which has a very limited market for at least forty years here in Italy. It is likely that from the moment of greater splendor in the production of hats (50s) come to our hands various hats that are what we want to have as collectors. The market today is scarce by producers, so forcibly, millions of pieces produced over the years become our "reserve" where to fish. We are talking about a millionaire serial production that had gorgeous hats, but also many low quality products. Will we perhaps be able to choose how in the twenties or thirties? It is impossible for a sum of economic and social factors, so we can try to have what we like in the world of hats, having an endless variety of disused objects available. The time factor has determined the offer of a clothing accessory that has very little appeal today. We are pretty lucky because very few have our craze.
All other considerations on the quality of materials and workings are the result of what has been said above.
I live in a small nation that has been the largest exporter of hats in the world and I can say, with good faith, that there are still quality hats, as long as we do not pursue myths.
If, for some of you, the myths are the fifties and the beaver, for me it is the 1920's and the 30's and the felt produced here in Italy
Also because this was the golden age for the production of Italian hats, but very few of them remain

I have a wonderfully beautiful early 40s Alessandra. The felt is superb. I will never part with it.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk