Ask a question, get an answer

[Frunobulax]

Riffing off Tim's and Daniele's posts...

There seem to be two things to discuss here - materials and workmanship. Felt bodies, as has been my understanding, aren't as high quality as they have been in the past. Now both Art and Esther have weighed in to say we may be overcritical on that front. Certainly Esther seems to be high on her TONAK bodies, and Art seems to think that at least the felting process isn't that different from before (unless Anthony's friend is correct about eliminating process steps).

Of course Tim is correct in that the final product is very dependent on the workmanship, as well. That comes down to QA/QC. Get a modern Stetson and the QA/QC is not as high as it has been in the past (and that allows poor workmanship on the factory floor). My local hatter has said that up to 50% of new Stetsons will get rejected by her from a shipment, and she will need to go through every one to QC them, and will even fix some of them so they don't get sent back and she can try to sell them. Gus Miller at Batsakes will not even carry Stetsons anymore. So a high quality skilled craftsman, such as Tim, Art, etc. will produce a better hat from the materials. It is obvious that those of us who are hat enthusiasts will pay for that attention to quality, but since the masses won't, and are willing to buy those Stetsons, etc. with poorer workmanship, there is no incentive to do better.

As for European hatters, I have to plead ignorance and defer to folks like Daniele and Steve. Certainly Borsalino has been making fine hats for many years, even into the modern age, although there seems to be a consensus that quality degraded after they moved from the original factory.

This is why, despite my satisfaction with a few Stetsons I've purchased the past couple of years, if I'm going to buy a new hat, it's going to be a custom from a craftsman. i use to salivate over the Stetson catalog, especially after they introduced the open crown lines. Now I salivate over Instagram posts by Tim and Michael Gannon.

 

[FedOregon]

I look at my late 50's Champ, a hat advertised as $7.50 compared to other hats of the time that were selling for $10. This wasn't a top shelf hat back then, but the quality of the felt and craftsmanship are far superior to anything new I've looked at in the past year.

Vintage and custom are my main purchases now. My only "new" hat was an Akubra Coober Pedy. I bought one Stetson that is probably into the 2000's, advertised as NOS. I paid about $135, if I remember right, and it was too much. I won't buy another Stetson or Akubra.

 

[Cane Rod Maker]

I think I read back far enough. And if I didn't I apologize. I really enjoy the quality of the Winchester felt. I only use the 100% beaver dress weight, and staple rabbit, and a occasional western blend, and I've never used any other company. But there was a mention of equipment being in operation for over 100 years. About this very subject is a process, and on here the lounge, a long time member posted a Winchester tour, somewhere here on the lounge, is a grand tour, of that very old equipment. Jim, I appreciate that response, today, to this subject. I can tell you this. In my opinion, if we all sit in a room, with the same felt, same color, the same grit sandpaper, all use the same process and work simultaneously; and at the end of the day, the proof, is in the final pounce, the time spent to lure, and brush and lure and brush.... you begin to see and understand your material through the hand pounce, and you become intimate, to how it is responding to the process - your hand. This is where you begin to appreciate a "hand" I'd bet in that room we'd see felt quality be different on each job. And I think that be pretty much 100% on target.

So Jim, workmanship and knowing that product being used are pretty key, and I appreciate your dripping wet keyboard, viewing the instagram, feed.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[alanfgag]

Some interesting thoughts shared here but the comparisons of hats modern to antique is not very useful. Like birds that have seen their last breeding pair, the hat industry is extinct. It is not just the manufacturers that are gone, gone too are the retailers where they were sold, and the customers who consumed them. A vestige of the raw materials can still be sourced in modern times and the work that craft hat shops do to recreate the styles and products of the past are loving homage for a tiny group of wearers and collectors.

The fashion industry from time to time references hats that are new takes on the old styles. We often tend on these pages to tear these interpretations apart as hipster adoptions, or worse.

I collect hats as antiques. I love the craft and manufacturing techniques that have disappeared in the extinction of the industry - also the store ghosts imprinted on the sweatbands, which, among their many stories, tell of the migration of Jewish shopkeepers from Europe, to NYC and on to Wyoming, Montana and California. I only collect hats that I can wear and I do wear all of them. I have yet to purchase a contemporary hat (save for a wonderful Cordova cap) from our esteemed makers, but I salute your efforts and talent.

To imagine a time when hat making re-emerges with wide influence, we might compare to the rise of modern craft breweries and distilleries... an interesting reversal of consolidation and extinction of small producers. What is different in that industry is that retailers still exist to help in the distribution of the craft products. Barney's and Saks might set up boutique shops for small hat makers and milliners if the demand for their wares should shift. If Target does the same, I expect I will give ball caps another try.

 

[moontheloon]

Some interesting thoughts shared here but the comparisons of hats modern to antique is not very useful. Like birds that have seen their last breeding pair, the hat industry is extinct. It is not just the manufacturers that are gone, gone too are the retailers where they were sold, and the customers that consumed them. A vestige of the raw materials can still be sourced in modern times and the work that craft hat shops do to recreate the styles and products of the past are loving homage for a tiny group of wearers and collectors.

The fashion industry from time to time references hats that are new takes on the old styles. We often tend on these pages to tear these interpretations apart as hipster adoptions, or worse.

I collect hats as antiques. I love the craft and manufacturing techniques that have disappeared in the extinction of the industry - also the store ghosts imprinted on the sweatbands, which, among their many stories, tell of the migration of Jewish shopkeepers from Europe, to NYC and on to Wyoming, Montana and California. I only collect hats that I can wear and I do wear all of them. I have yet to purchase a contemporary hat (save for a wonderful Cordova cap) from our esteemed makers, but I salute your efforts and talent.

To imagine a time when hat making re-emerges with wide influence, we might compare to the rise of modern craft breweries and distilleries... an interesting reversal of consolidation and extinction of small producers. What is different in that industry is that retailers still exist to help in the distribution of the craft products. Barney's and Saks might set up boutique shops for small hat makers and milliners if the demand for their wares should shift. If Target does the same, I expect I will give ball caps another try.

absolute enjoyable read

 

[Frunobulax]

Some interesting thoughts shared here but the comparisons of hats modern to antique is not very useful. Like birds that have seen their last breeding pair, the hat industry is extinct. It is not just the manufacturers that are gone, gone too are the retailers where they were sold, and the customers that consumed them. A vestige of the raw materials can still be sourced in modern times and the work that craft hat shops do to recreate the styles and products of the past are loving homage for a tiny group of wearers and collectors.

The fashion industry from time to time references hats that are new takes on the old styles. We often tend on these pages to tear these interpretations apart as hipster adoptions, or worse.

I collect hats as antiques. I love the craft and manufacturing techniques that have disappeared in the extinction of the industry - also the store ghosts imprinted on the sweatbands, which, among their many stories, tell of the migration of Jewish shopkeepers from Europe, to NYC and on to Wyoming, Montana and California. I only collect hats that I can wear and I do wear all of them. I have yet to purchase a contemporary hat (save for a wonderful Cordova cap) from our esteemed makers, but I salute your efforts and talent.

To imagine a time when hat making re-emerges with wide influence, we might compare to the rise of modern craft breweries and distilleries... an interesting reversal of consolidation and extinction of small producers. What is different in that industry is that retailers still exist to help in the distribution of the craft products. Barney's and Saks might set up boutique shops for small hat makers and milliners if the demand for their wares should shift. If Target does the same, I expect I will give ball caps another try.

You correctly point to the retailing and distribution of the hats, and I think your comparison with craft breweries is apropos. Once was a time when every town had a brewery and many larger towns had many. Folks drank the local concoction, and the product wasn't as homogeneous. That industry was severely crippled during the Prohibition Era and has only recovered in the last 20-30 years. But as you rightly point out, the distribution of these products is still similar, if not the same. We still go to the local watering hole to consume the product, or take some home from a dealer that we physically visit.

That is not so true in the clothing/fashion industry. Hats were ascendant during a period of personal haberdashers or department stores that catered to their customers in the flesh. The advent of the modern age has changed the shopping experience. No longer does a man regularly visit his haberdasher to get fitted and supplied with his everyday clothes. You either buy off the rack or pull up Amazon on your tablet and order a pair of Rockports in your size.

The craftsman, or individual service, can still be had, but we are using the modern forms of retail to get what we want, in some part. I've never met Michael Gannon, but he knows my head and has supplied me with some nice hats that he worked with me to create and get into my hands. Art Fawcett takes the time and effort to work back and forth with his customers to provide a virtual hands-on experience, as does Tim at Alley Kat. Similarly, I've ordered custom shirts from Natty Shirts and been very satisfied with the product and experience. So thanks to places like Etsy and the distance shortened by modern communication, somebody like Esther can reach a worldwide customer base and serve her customers with the attention that her craftsmanship deserves.

In short, I do think we've come full circle in shopping for clothes and other handmade goods, just as we have with beer. But we are experiencing a different interaction model with the people we are buying from.

It truly is a great big (and small) wonderful world we live in these days.

 

[blueAZNmonkey]

I just wanted to chime in and say that this conversation has been truly wonderful to follow. If the slim chance occurs and the market for the quality felts of yesteryear does make a comeback, I might be one of the few in this generation of Loungers blessed to see it with mortal eyes.

I have hope. Take the craft brew comparison Alan made. Living in San Diego's infamous 78 corridor -- I've seen 99+ craft breweries open up across my highway in the last ten years. Most of these new companies not only made their brewing facilities, but also built storefronts and restaurants so they could cater directly to the consumer -- effectively making a new watering hole where there previously wasn't one. And this occurs in conjunction with sales to local supermarkets (and sometimes nationwide, as is the case with Stone and Ballast Point). Here we see new establishments being created and finding stability, and old establishments benefiting from their access to quality products.

And in terms of fashion -- I think there's a reason why made-to-measure businesses like USSuitSupply, Indochino, Buttons and Threads, Oliver Wicks etc. are seeing great success. At least some in my generation of disposable goods must be maturing and recognizing a good personalized 100% material product vs. a throw-away, and are willing to shell out good money for quality pieces.

Anyway -- I concur that the normalcy of fine hats will likely not reach the same level it was at a hundred years ago, but there just might be enough demand for better quality felt over the next several decades to warrant a resourcement-communio to the soft touch of yesteryear.

 

[blueAZNmonkey]

I just wanted to chime in and say that this conversation has been truly wonderful to follow. If the slim chance occurs and the market for the quality felts of yesteryear does make a comeback, I might be one of the few in this generation of Loungers blessed to see it with mortal eyes.

I have hope. Take the craft brew comparison Alan made. Living in San Diego's infamous 78 corridor -- I've seen 99+ craft breweries open up across my highway in the last ten years. Most of these new companies not only made their brewing facilities, but also built storefronts and restaurants so they could cater directly to the consumer -- effectively making a new watering hole where there previously wasn't one. And this occurs in conjunction with sales to local supermarkets (and sometimes nationwide, as is the case with Stone and Ballast Point). Here we see new establishments being created and finding stability, and old establishments benefiting from their access to quality products.

And in terms of fashion -- I think there's a reason why made-to-measure businesses like USSuitSupply, Indochino, Buttons and Threads, Oliver Wicks etc. are seeing great success. At least some in my generation of disposable goods must be maturing and recognizing a good personalized 100% material product vs. a throw-away, and are willing to shell out good money for quality pieces.

Anyway -- I concur that the normalcy of fine hats will likely not reach the same level it was at a hundred years ago, but there just might be enough demand for better quality felt over the next several decades to warrant a resourcement-communio to the soft touch of yesteryear.

I should also add -- that I, in no way, intend to demean the excellent makers we have here in the Lounge. As Fed mentioned earlier, I drool over your catalogs.

 

[Bob Roberts]

Does anyone know what Lee called their version of a "felted edge" brim?

 

[Frunobulax]

Does anyone know what Lee called their version of a "felted edge" brim?

Bob, from over in the Lee Lounge.

An ad from 1931 which only refers to a "hand felted brim," no brand designation.

Also, a link to another "Edgelee" posted by rlk. This one also has a Cavanagh edge - perhaps that was a feature of this model.

 

[Bob Roberts]

Bob, from over in the Lee Lounge.

An ad from 1931 which only refers to a "hand felted brim," no brand designation.

View attachment 74383

Also, a link to another "Edgelee" posted by rlk. This one also has a Cavanagh edge - perhaps that was a feature of this model.

Thx. Guess they just called it the EDGElee. Or simply The "Edge."

 

[Captain O]

I saw one on Ebay for sale. Is it worth $26.99? (Corrected).

 

[Uhu]

I saw one on Ebay for sale. Is it worth $26.00?

Trilbies haven't really caught on as collectibles the way fedoras have. I think the Trilby sort of represent the last gasp of the brimmed hat, and they are relatively common. So I would say you should value one with that in mind, and according to quality and how well it meets your personal criteria, same as any other article of clothing. 26 bucks isn't much in the scheme of things. If you like it, I think its a good price.

 

[Frunobulax]

Thx. Guess they just called it the EDGElee. Or simply The "Edge."

Better than "Bono."


Sent directly from my mind to yours.

 

[DJH]

They are playing at Jerry World here soon. $800 per ticket says I won't be there.


Cheers!
David

 

[BobHufford]

They are playing at Jerry World here soon. $800 per ticket says I won't be there.

Good Lord that's pricey! I saw them in 1997 at Arrowhead Stadium and had seats on the "Edge" of the runway stage (right next to the lemon that they exited). The Edge was wearing a cowboy hat and I still have the souvenir ball-cap (to keep this somewhat on topic).

 

[moontheloon]

Good Lord that's pricey! I saw them in 1997 at Arrowhead Stadium and had seats on the "Edge" of the runway stage (right next to the lemon that they exited). The Edge was wearing a cowboy hat and I still have the souvenir ball-cap (to keep this somewhat on topic).

honestly one of he best live bands I've ever seen ... hands down
I always respected them very much but wasn't a fanatic ... in Oct. of 2001 I was offered a free ticket by a buddy when they played in Boston ... I had no idea what to expect and I'll tell you that I got one of the best live performances I've seen to this day.

It was also very emotional being soon after 9/11 and when they played MLK they had a huge wall behind them where they scrolled all the names of those lost in the tragedy ... right near the end of the song Bono stood at the edge of the ramp and opened his jacket exposing an American flag liner ... sounds corny I'm sure but it was extremely moving at the time

It was also Larry Mullen Jr. 40th Birthday that night and they doused him in cake ... fantastic show

 

[Frunobulax]

They are playing at Jerry World here soon. $800 per ticket says I won't be there.


Cheers!
David

If I had that kind of $$ to burn, I'd have given Ant a fight for that Knox 40. [emoji1]


Sent directly from my mind to yours.

 

[belfastboy]

I just wanted to chime in and say that this conversation has been truly wonderful to follow. If the slim chance occurs and the market for the quality felts of yesteryear does make a comeback, I might be one of the few in this generation of Loungers blessed to see it with mortal eyes.

I have hope. Take the craft brew comparison Alan made. Living in San Diego's infamous 78 corridor -- I've seen 99+ craft breweries open up across my highway in the last ten years. Most of these new companies not only made their brewing facilities, but also built storefronts and restaurants so they could cater directly to the consumer -- effectively making a new watering hole where there previously wasn't one. And this occurs in conjunction with sales to local supermarkets (and sometimes nationwide, as is the case with Stone and Ballast Point). Here we see new establishments being created and finding stability, and old establishments benefiting from their access to quality products.

And in terms of fashion -- I think there's a reason why made-to-measure businesses like USSuitSupply, Indochino, Buttons and Threads, Oliver Wicks etc. are seeing great success. At least some in my generation of disposable goods must be maturing and recognizing a good personalized 100% material product vs. a throw-away, and are willing to shell out good money for quality pieces.

Anyway -- I concur that the normalcy of fine hats will likely not reach the same level it was at a hundred years ago, but there just might be enough demand for better quality felt over the next several decades to warrant a resourcement-communio to the soft touch of yesteryear.

I understand your point but when you realize the enormous difference in the hat market size between now and one hundred years ago it seems to me to be overly optimistic to think of any manner of hat resurgence to that scale. In those old pics every man was wearing a hat, or cap. My father, a working class guy would not leave the house without his fedora. He would not think of it anymore than leaving without a shirt. Today living in a major (well for Canada anyway) city I consider it a good day if I see more than one person wearing a fedora like hat. Even then it is more likely the $10 to $20 plastic or wool hipster trilby from Goorin or H&M that I see or an Akkubra type outback hat on an outdoorsy dressed person. I think the best that can be hoped for is the market stays vibrant enough to support the wonderful custom hatters we have and that they can continue to hone their craft AND make a decent living doing so. And to tell the truth I kind of prefer to be in a minority of one on most days and find it a treat to meet one other hat wearer during the day that I can compliment or just give a nod of recognition. If everyone wore a hat I would grow weary of giving an unending stream of compliments!!!

 

[FedOregon]

I was at an Emergency Preparedness Fair a couple weeks ago and hundreds attended. It was dry outside, but cool and cloudy. I saw 2 other guys besides me with brimmed hats... and 1 ball cap.