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[moontheloon]

In all fairness the hats today made by very talented & meticulous hatters should be given up to 70 yrs of everyday pouncing in all kinds of conditions to receive a fair evaluation. Unfortunately none of us will be around then to make it.

agreed ... but there is no denying that the starting point is different

the very raw material .. the hood itself is not what it once was no matter who it is made by

 

[Captain O]

Well... The Christys' Bowler is going to be a fine investment. The hat the sent to me was marvelous. The size 7 replacement will be my favorite until I can obtain Mike Miller's custom creation. I am filled with warm anticipation at the simple thought of what Mike will have to offer.

It doesn't get much better than that.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

agreed ... but there is no denying that the starting point is different

the very raw material .. the hood itself is not what it once was no matter who it is made by

The starting point may be different but is there anyone alive who would know what a felted hat felt like the day it was new 70 yrs ago? How can you qualify that opinion? How can you extrapolate 70 yrs out into the future to compare what a custom hat made from hoods today will feel like then?

 

[moontheloon]

The starting point may be different but is there anyone alive who would know what a felted hat felt like the day it was new 70 yrs ago? How can you qualify that opinion? How can you extrapolate 70 yrs out into the future to compare what a custom hat made from hoods today will feel like then?

because the process is completely different

no one can afford to go through the steps the way they went through them back then ... it is just not economic ...

hoods are not nearly what they once were ... not even close

it is really not even arguable honestly

 

[blueAZNmonkey]

The starting point may be different but is there anyone alive who would know what a felted hat felt like the day it was new 70 yrs ago? How can you qualify that opinion? How can you extrapolate 70 yrs out into the future to compare what a custom hat made from hoods today will feel like then?

Interesting thesis here... I think we can assume certain things about the quality of antique hats when they were brand new -- but you're right! I wonder how my projects will feel after seventy years of weather and wear.

 

[Captain O]

Mike's done 2 for me. Both great. He has a good selection of brim flanges as well. Just be specific as to the details yer lookin for.

Absolutely! I want a Whippet-style grosgrain ribbon around the brim edge, but have been considering the "seeing double" since it isn't a common sight anywhere. (The double stitching on the brim throws me a bit, but I would venture to say that I could grow accustomed to it).

For now, I'm considering his version of the Whippet.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

it is really not even arguable honestly

Okay then.

 

[Captain O]

You're not the first to make that statement around here. And we'll only encourage you.

Fair warning.

You incorrigible ba$t*rds! (But I love you anyway).

 

[moontheloon]

Okay then.

do you understand the process these hoods were put through back then ?

if a company attempted to do it that way now they would go broke before they sold one hat ... there is not nearly enough demand to put that sort of attention into the felting process

not to mention some of the chemicals used in the old process are now illegal

 

[belfastboy]

Interesting thesis here... I think we can assume certain things about the quality of antique hats when they were brand new -- but you're right! I wonder how my projects will feel after seventy years of weather and wear.

Esther Weiss has some vintage felts that were made using the old felting method involving Mercury. She says the hand is incredibly soft and supple. We will never see the likes of something like this again as I doubt anyone would be brave or foolish enough to attempt using the mercury process.

 

[Frunobulax]

Interesting thesis here... I think we can assume certain things about the quality of antique hats when they were brand new -- but you're right! I wonder how my projects will feel after seventy years of weather and wear.

I don't see where weather and wear have any bearing on the felt density or materials quality. Too many of us have experienced finding a pristine hat that has obviously sat in a box for 50-60 years.


Sent directly from my mind to yours.

 

[Frunobulax]

Esther Weiss has some vintage felts that were made using the old felting method involving Mercury. She says the hand is incredibly soft and supple. We will never see the likes of something like this again as I doubt anyone would be brave or foolish enough to attempt using the mercury process.

That would make those bodies from the 30s, likely. That process was abandoned quite some time ago.

At least in the US, maybe Europe kept it up for a while.

Sent directly from my mind to yours.

 

[Captain O]

I believe that they kept using Mercuric Nitrate in the process until 1941 at the latest. If it was well-ventilated and a gas mask was worn along with other protective gear, I'd be willing to bet that thy could do it once again (but the damned EPA would raise holy hell over it).

 

[blueAZNmonkey]

I don't see where weather and wear have any bearing on the felt density or materials quality. Too many of us have experienced finding a pristine hat that has obviously sat in a box for 50-60 years.


Sent directly from my mind to yours.

Very true. There or processes that went into the felt that have long since been discarded. I'm just wondering how the customs of today will feel when they are considered antique -- if there might be some sort of softening or loosening that occurs slowly over time.

 

[Captain O]

As I had stated in another thread they are actually manufacturing spatterdashes, or colloquially "spats" once again. for both men and women. The Navy still uses ceremonial leggings (spatterdashes) on the Honor Guards, I found it amazing that a symbol of distinction that fell from style 98 years ago is back.

 

[Frunobulax]

Very true. There or processes that went into the felt that have long since been discarded. I'm just wondering how the customs of today will feel when they are considered antique -- if there might be some sort of softening or loosening that occurs slowly over time.

Probably so. A high quality hat should last a couple of lifetimes. You may have to replace the sweatband or the like, but felt is tough stuff. And not loosening so much as tightening. Felt, like cement continues it's finishing process for years to come. Those hats you are making right now will continue felting for years to come as they are exposed to the element,s heat, cold, body "emanations," etc.

I believe that they kept using Mercuric Nitrate in the process until 1941 at the latest. If it was well-ventilated and a gas mask was worn along with other protective gear, I'd be willing to bet that thy could do it once again (but the damned EPA would raise holy hell over it).

More likely OSHA.

 

[Captain O]

Probably so. A high quality hat should last a couple of lifetimes. You may have to replace the sweatband or the like, but felt is tough stuff. And not loosening so much as tightening. Felt, like cement continues it's finishing process for years to come. Those hats you are making right now will continue felting for years to come as they are exposed to the element,s heat, cold, body "emanations," etc.



More likely OSHA.

You're correct. The Occupational Safety and Health Administration would be the one to come down on them. With the proper safety gear (headgear, body coverings, and respirators) it could be done again. These are "initial" expenses/investments. Expensive, but it not outside the realm of reason.

 

[Frunobulax]

You're correct. The Occupational Safety and Health Administration would be the one to come down on them. With the proper safety gear (headgear, body coverings, and respirators) it could be done again. These are "initial" expenses/investments. Expensive, but it not outside the realm of reason.

From what I've been able to glean, it was banned by the USPHS (for felting) by regulation, not legislation. So to be used again, it would have to probably go through a public comment period, etc. I suppose it could be rolled back by the Executive (when I'm elected President, that will be my first EO!). It wasn't banned for health purposes, per se, but because the mercury was needed for WWII weapons production. However, public health and worker safety concerns would likely be at the forefront today. Not to mention there is no industry desire to go back to mercury.

Also, my guess is that, with modern techniques and research, effective carroting could be achieved without mercury, should the industry put their mind to it. But as we know, the industry isn't as competitive as it once was, so there are no drivers to improve felting beyond what we have now.

Mr. Deckard gave it a shot, and if HatCo/Stetson had been motivated by increased business volume and developed a desire to make better felts and higher quality hats because the demand was there, I'm sure modern science could get us back to those types of qualities without the mercury.

As we know, that ain't happening.

 

[blueAZNmonkey]

Mr. Deckard gave it a shot, and if HatCo/Stetson had been motivated by increased business volume and developed a desire to make better felts and higher quality hats because the demand was there, I'm sure modern science could get us back to those types of qualities without the mercury.

As we know, that ain't happening.

I think we have reason to hope. Although ever-evolving technology has led my generation to favor disposable everything over more permanent quality, it has also fueled a fierce desire to chase after trends (and has made self-education about these sorts of niches much easier). All we need are more influencers making fine felt hats more "normal" and the demand will slowly rise and possibly lead to a new boom. Just in the last year, I've noticed far less cloth trilbies and far more actual felt fedoras popping up in my Instagram feed -- and my wife's high school students have been asking me how best to acquire "an old-school fedora" (God bless the hipsters...).

And you never know, maybe the race to Mars will produce the need for some sort of softening agent in the felt that sits inside space helmets?

 

[Frunobulax]

I think we have reason to hope. Although ever-evolving technology has led my generation to favor disposable everything over more permanent quality, it has also fueled a fierce desire to chase after trends (and has made self-education about these sorts of niches much easier). All we need are more influencers making fine felt hats more "normal" and the demand will slowly rise and possibly lead to a new boom. Just in the last year, I've noticed far less cloth trilbies and far more actual felt fedoras popping up in my Instagram feed -- and my wife's high school students have been asking me how best to acquire "an old-school fedora" (God bless the hipsters...).

And you never know, maybe the race to Mars will produce the need for some sort of softening agent in the felt that sits inside space helmets?

Usually, I'm an optimist and a bit of a Pollyanna, but I'm afraid I'm pessimistic about this. It would take one heck of a change in fashion trends to move the market to the degree that such a "boom" would increase the desire to return to the quality the industry once provided.

The losses (or potential losses) at Borsalino and Barbisio are real trouble for the science and manufacture of fur felts. Even a significant pause in production from these providers means losing a wealth of institutional knowledge as workers and technicians move on to other vocations or retire outright. I just don't see there being much market for R&D investment by the producers, which is what would drive change/improvement.

I had the good fortune to spend a few months working in the USAF Clothing Office a couple of years ago. These folks are involved in finding new materials to meet the challenges of airmen and soldiers. There is much science to be had in studying and improving materials to address cold weather, wearability, seeking newer, lightweight materials, etc. I think the science can do it, I just don't think the market will support the science.

I worked with a fellow who had an advanced degree (I think Ph.D) in Textile Engineering from NCSU. Perhaps we could endow a chair in felt research to further the science of hatting?

I'll throw in $20.00. I'd go more but I have hats to buy.