Article: Why do People Hate Hipsters

[Fletch]

I don't think anyone's begrudging slackers the right to make this opinion known. I think people-- myself included-- are perturbed at the fact they often do so while contributing nothing to-- yet living off of-- the very society and practices they find so abominable.

If one of them offered substantive, well-reasoned and insightful criticism of said society, or some inspiring new kind of art or community activism or cultural outreach - well, I'd think that amounted to a damn good contribution.

I do appreciate, though, that many would prefer a contribution in exchange value to the market. Or perhaps in hours of community service, which at least gives the consolation of thinking of people who bite the hand that feeds them as a kind of criminal element.

 

[Son_of_Atropos]

Regarding the article, and your point BK, I agree - you can't take a single late-night party and hate an entire group of people for it. If anything, you "hate" the people that threw the party - and only so far as they were being jerks, not because they dress funny. On the other hand, I'm sure you understand how that leap of logic is made (albeit faulty). Racism is a good example of this leap. If a member of group A is bad, then group A must be bad. Moreover, if many members of group A are bad, then certainly all of group A is bad. It's incorrect logic, but I think it serves its purpose in the human mind. People can't possibly index and catalog each individual member of society, so we make these leaps of logic to serve our interests, much in the same way we say, "Ouch, this fire is hot," and thereby discontinue sticking our hands in the fire, and future fires. I'm not excusing the error, and I believe humans are capable of evolving.

Regarding Edward, and possibly all UK loungers, perhaps your idea of "hipster" is the US version of smarmy yuppie? From what Viola said and from what you discussed, it sounds like they work and have money, but they are self-absorbed and self-important; the clothing doesn't seem to apply (or at least not so much as it does in the US stereotype), is that correct?

Regarding disliking these hipsters, I think the coin has two sides - you have an opinion or you don't. If we were lining hipsters up against a wall and cutting their throats, then certainly I could understand the outrage; but on the other hand, we're civilized people expressing our own preferences and using whatever anecdotes to back our conclusions. What's wrong with that? Isn't that a part of what the Observation Bar is: expressing one's views from the position one sits (however high and lofty that might be)? I'm seeing vehemence coming from both sides, really. Again, I'm not excusing it, but when things get heated, so what? Heated is good, so long as we remain civilized adults about it. So why chide those for "hatred" anymore than those who "excuse" hipsters?

Personally, as I’ve already said earlier, interactions with the over-privileged and the arrogantly pseudo-intellectual are typically my worst experiences. I know people that consider themselves “in the know” or “hip”, and they build this vacuous personality to fit whatever trend they’re following. One day they were into heavy metal music, then it was raves and pills, then it was vintage-era smut, then it was tattoos and Harleys, then it was 80’s style, then it was jetsetting, and on and on, ad nauseam. The problem is, they somehow wrapped me up in this immature, imaginary view of the world, and they cost me money, time, blood, etc. Because I can’t tolerate that kind of behavior, I’ve distanced myself from those people. Thus, I tend to be wary of those kinds of people in general, but of course I give everyone a chance. [huh]

Excellent post. Casting the "anti-hipsters" as hateful, stereotyping, and ignorant is insulting and absurd.

It appears from the thread people really don't like hipsters-- not for their clothing -- but for their attitude.

And in regards to stereotyping, it is perfectly natural in this situation. It is natural for people who dress like hipsters to be considered arrogant and obnoxious. Because those vices are the hipster ethos. These vices aren't projected onto hipsters by outsiders rather hipsters established them and promote them.

Does the "pro-hipster" crowd think that deep down, Neo-Nazis/skin heads are actually for diversity? Or people shouldn't assume that people with swastiza tattoos are affiliated with Nazis? We should spend our time getting to know them because deep down they are just really misunderstood?

 

[Pompidou]

I take everyone on an individual basis. One night, I was at the bar, and the bartender was talking with another regular, maybe two, I wasn't involved in the conversation early on, and they were talking about this other regular they didn't really like much. For whatever reason, one of them asked what my opinion was, and I said he seemed alright to me, pretty much. One asked, "You don't think he seems weird or strange," to which I replied that he might be, but if I judged everyone I thought was kinda weird or strange, I wouldn't have made any friends at this bar - or something to that effect. The bartender said, good point, well said. I mean, I'm pretty weird and strange myself.

So, if I came across a hipster, a skin head, an anything, I'm not going to care. If said individual treated me alright, I'll reciprocate. I'm not going to hate the person, not at that point anyway. If the person was a skinhead, because that really is a more defining argument, and maybe had a big swastika on his forehead, so long as he didn't say or do questionable things in my presence, I'd treat him like any other human being. Now, if he was doing something I thought was wrong, like making anti Semitic speeches or something, I would try and do the right thing, be that stick up for whoever was on the receiving end, or whatever was appropriate. If some time down the line, I came across some other skinhead, and the skinhead was acting respectably, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. I wouldn't assume he's like his predecessor. I wouldn't want people to assume I'm all the vices of the last guy to wear a red hat, for example. Everyone gets the benefit of the doubt.

EDIT: I suppose it'd suffice to say, that when I'm walking down the street, for all intents and purposes, nobody has a category. I just don't think that way. Now, that's not to say, if you pointed out someone on the street and asked me what group s/he was, that I couldn't tell you, but the labels mean nothing to me in terms of actually dealing with people.

EDIT 2: Is stereotyping ever really natural? I mean, I'm no socialite - I'm no celebrity of any sort. I don't really have personal encounters of any significance with a number of people great enough that I can't sort them out on a case by case basis. 99% of the people I encounter just walk on by, and merit no judgement whatsoever. The few that say hi, or deal with me in a business setting or whatever, well, I suppose I'm okay with living and learning. One of my friends looks very shady - why, if I were the stereotyping sort, I'd have avoided him as a thug and a pool shark. I'm glad I was open minded - nicest guy around and a good friend now. On the other hand, take a gander at my "ear flicking..." thread in hats to learn my experiences with a middle aged lady, a hard working truck driver looking fellow, and an elderly man. So yeah, unless giving the benefit of the doubt really impacts your quality of life - I mean, where you can't get everything you want done in a day because you have so many human encounters - it's not necessary to stereotype. If it's natural, who knows. Lots of things are natural, but we put our baser instincts aside to live in a civilized society.

 

[Fletch]

I take everyone on an individual basis.

At first glance I read this as "I hate everyone on an individual basis." Hey, you could do worse.

I suppose it'd suffice to say, that when I'm walking down the street, for all intents and purposes, nobody has a category. I just don't think that way.

I didn't use to. I learned to when living in and around New York, where treating others as you would like to be treated can actually lead to nasty confrontations once in a while. I have to admire your forbearance.

 

[Pompidou]

At first glance I read this as "I hate everyone on an individual basis." Hey, you could do worse.

I didn't use to. I learned to when living in and around New York, where treating others as you would like to be treated can actually lead to nasty confrontations once in a while. I have to admire your forbearance.

Thanks! It has its ups and downs. I've made a lot of unlikely friends, but one time I offered a harmless looking guy a ride that some of my friends and I were talking to after the bar closed, and found myself talking him out of robbing me to complete a crack deal with some guy that suddenly wanted more - seemed he didn't want to go home after all. I didn't lose my wallet because I'm a great talker and compromised on driving him to his brother's house who could help and not saying anything, but it was close. I still stick by my convictions because well, I think they're right.

 

[Feraud]

Does the "pro-hipster" crowd think that deep down, Neo-Nazis/skin heads are actually for diversity? Or people shouldn't assume that people with swastiza tattoos are affiliated with Nazis? We should spend our time getting to know them because deep down they are just really misunderstood?

I don't think you will find any of the "pro-hipster crowd" (is there such a crowd here?) who will defend Nazis, neo or otherwise, or swastika tattoos.
Casting the group you are in opposition to in this light doesn't promote conversation but an adversarial position among the variety of opinions on the topic.

 

[Edward]

I think the type of hipster being discussed here, for the most part, is a non-working child of upper-middle-class to upper class parents who nominally live on those parents' dime while decrying modern society and all that it stands for. All in all, pretty much just The Hippies, Part Deux. Specifically, they are "hipsters" because of their adherence to a certain set of aesthetic values, which involves their dressing in a certain way/acting in a certain way/liking certain things because it lends to this aesthetic, which values the concept of "irony" as a means by which to convey a message to the world that said hipsters do not adhere to standard or current societal norms.

Now I've also encountered "Hipsters" who qualify as such, but with completely different attitudes and motivations. They, too, dress eccentrically and enjoy non-mainstream culture, but they do so because of a genuine enjoyment, not for the purpose of being "ironic." My brother and the guys in his band would probably all be considered hipsters. Three of them come from upper-middle-class backgrounds but now live blue collar lives, with all of the flannel and beer guzzling that entails. They do this, however, because they have moved out of their parents homes and gotten blue collar jobs and are living within the means of their lifestyle, and enjoying themselves while they do it. They listen to (and make) "indy" music, not to be ironic, but because they enjoy it. They choose their beer-- and for some of them, it is PBR-- not to enjoy it for "irony" but because they like it.

So I think that some demarcation is in order. I dislike/hate/am repelled by the "hipster" culture that makes aesthetic choices based on the concept of irony and engages in behavior in an attempt to send some type of "message." I have no overwhelmingly positive or negative opinion of individuals who live counter to their upbringing or enjoy non-mainstream popular culture or dress in an uncommon maner because these are choices they have made out of a genuine enjoyment.

Looks like a different beast under discussion in large part, then. As BK has commented, over here the term (not much in use anyhow, but the creature exists and goes by other, typically much ruder, names) refers often to the kid of people seen in the OP. I wouldn't say it was a particularly counter-cultural trend - if anything, it's marked most obviously by the ironic (often mocking) celebration of banal, lowest common denominator, mass popular culture.

Does the "pro-hipster" crowd think that deep down, Neo-Nazis/skin heads are actually for diversity? Or people shouldn't assume that people with swastiza tattoos are affiliated with Nazis? We should spend our time getting to know them because deep down they are just really misunderstood?

Thread Godwinned! lol

 

[Fletch]

I contest the Godwinning. S_o_A did mention "Nazis," but he apparently meant Neo-Nazis, who don't count.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Looks like a different beast under discussion in large part, then. As BK has commented, over here the term (not much in use anyhow, but the creature exists and goes by other, typically much ruder, names) refers often to the kid of people seen in the OP. I wouldn't say it was a particularly counter-cultural trend - if anything, it's marked most obviously by the ironic (often mocking) celebration of banal, lowest common denominator, mass popular culture.

There's a lot of that here, but I think the big difference is that it's accompanied by a big fat middle-finger to all authority -- not so much out of principle, as much as for the sake of giving a big fat middle-finger to all authority because it's cool to do so. "Hey, please don't throw your trash on the floor." "UP YOURS DOOD" "Hey, please don't steal the fixtures in the theatre." "UP YOURS DOOD." "Hey, you really ought to signal for turns, even on a bike." "UP YOURS DOOD." Etc, etc. ad infinitum.

Rebellion for the sake of principle is one thing. But these type of folks aren't the CIO in 1937 by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Yeps]

Rebellion for the sake of principle is one thing. But these type of folks aren't the CIO in 1937 by any stretch of the imagination.

Godwin averted, thank you.

Anyway, I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. Rebellion has become an essential part of modern culture, even when one cannot find something to rebel against.

 

[Undertow]

Godwin averted, thank you.

Anyway, I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. Rebellion has become an essential part of modern culture, even when one cannot find something to rebel against.

Or perhaps on might say...
Rebel Without a Cause

 

[mattfink]

What do these kids have to rebel against? Their parents are their buddies.

 

[Edward]

I contest the Godwinning. S_o_A did mention "Nazis," but he apparently meant Neo-Nazis, who don't count.

Meh, I'd support any judge wishing to expand the Godwin doctrine in that direction. Otherwise, we're splitting hairs.

There's a lot of that here, but I think the big difference is that it's accompanied by a big fat middle-finger to all authority -- not so much out of principle, as much as for the sake of giving a big fat middle-finger to all authority because it's cool to do so. "Hey, please don't throw your trash on the floor." "UP YOURS DOOD" "Hey, please don't steal the fixtures in the theatre." "UP YOURS DOOD." "Hey, you really ought to signal for turns, even on a bike." "UP YOURS DOOD." Etc, etc. ad infinitum.

Rebellion for the sake of principle is one thing. But these type of folks aren't the CIO in 1937 by any stretch of the imagination.

Ah, okay. The unpleasant type over here tend towards the sneering at people they consider less informed / 'smart' / 'with it' than them, but it's not really something I'd associate with rebellion, per se.

What do these kids have to rebel against? Their parents are their buddies.

Ghastly thought. I'm glad my folks were responsible enough to be parents. Me, when I chose to rebel, I rebelled against my peers, which I found far more rewarding.

 

[the snake's hips]

Perchance we have a culturally different expectation of what the "single life" involves.

Yeah. Uh. The bonafide hipster types I know?

Their early twenties rock and roll lifestyle were not a phase. They are a way of life.

And that includes: drinking until dawn nearly every weekend, occasional drug use outside the realm of just weed, some of them are perpetual undergrads, an aversion to laundry, an aversion to cleaning, an aversion to having a permanent address, an aversion to permanent employment, a collection of rotating roommates, arranging your entire life around burning man or rainbow gathering or a particular convention and it's related social clique, etc.

I am not talking just being single with an apartment at 30. I am talking living in a hovel that everyone refuses to clean, sleeping on a mattress on the floor, and bringing your laundry to your parents house every few months. And, you know, pawning your guitar on occasion, but never the video game console. It's about keeping your options open, 'cause your options are things like dipping into occasional drug slinging, setting up temporary production companies, or moving across country with little to no notice 'cause you suffer from terminal boredom on a regular basis, all while pretending to be an artist of some sort.

So, they're not transiently employed because of the economy. They're transiently employed because work infringes on the party schedule. A number of them are self-employed artists and "consultants" because they can work substance abuse and alcoholism and scene events *around* it. If they are single, it isn't an ethical stance, as much as it's a really high level self-absorption. If they're childless, it's because babies don't like Pabst Blue Ribbon (joking.)

I know grown up, adult-acting single people. These are NOT grown up, adult-acting single people. These are people that cannot get their act together.

Frankly, I don't get how they can physically and mentally deal with it all. I know that some of them can't. I have a friend that developed Cirrhosis at the ripe old age of 31. The single most cliched-looking hipster I know is on all sorts of anti-depressants/anxiety meds/etc.

And, frankly, I cannot imagine that it doesn't get boring. I mean, I see pictures sometimes, and all I can think is, "That is the same party I went to in 2001, only now they are all balder and sadder."

 

[scottyrocks]

Or perhaps on might say...
Rebel Without a Cause

And not so modern.

From The Wild One (1953):

'What are you rebelling against, Johnny?'

'Whaddaya got?'

(Or something like that).

 

[Son_of_Atropos]

I don't think you will find any of the "pro-hipster crowd" (is there such a crowd here?) who will defend Nazis, neo or otherwise, or swastika tattoos.
Casting the group you are in opposition to in this light doesn't promote conversation but an adversarial position among the variety of opinions on the topic.

<Face palms>

I was not casting the pro hipster crowd as Neo-Nazis or Nazis. I was making the comparison that people who wear swastikas are pro white. Someone who wears hipster garb will be characterized as arrogant. Do you understand now?

The stench of self-righteousness is getting to be overwhelming.

 

[Pompidou]

The stench of self-righteousness is getting to be overwhelming.

The guy who believes himself superior to a whole diverse subculture of people without reservation would have grown accustomed to the smell. Surprised you noticed it.

 

[Hemingway Jones]

OK, we can disagree without the personal attacks and there will be quite enough of that posted here. In other words, no more contention or it will get deleted. Debate points not people or personalities.

 

[Son_of_Atropos]

In regards to my points. Your previous post suggests that I am arguing that by wearing suits the person is morally or culturally superior to the person wearing a t-shirt and jeans. I have never made that argument. I argue the clothing is superior not the person.

Pompidou, your previous post is a gross mischaracterization.

 

[p71towny]

Someone much wiser than me summed it up best: "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do , do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." And that's whither we *all* goest, like it or not -- the real secret of life, as far as I can see, is that there *is* no secret of life.

Agreed. I find enjoyment in actually doing things in life. Where others see work, I see pride in a job well done. I guess that's where I'm more vintage. No, I don't dress like many around here. I don't use an antique stove everyday (although if my wife would let me I would), but I do live by the old work ethic. I enjoy learning and applying new knowledge. I'd rather live life than watch it on T.V. ( tho I do love my Sun night cartoons on Fox). There is so much to living and actually building a life, and I feel if more people applied themselves we could turn a lot of things back around. A fedora does not a hipster make, an attitude however does.