WWII Windproof 1942 Smock

[tamoko]

SAS was in WW2 not very large. How it is possible so many SAS Smock survived?

This interesting videos to SBS smock, what i can see this is camouflage, no front pockets and Full zipped.
min: 06:12 /10:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgogBUQ0AmU

 

[H.Johnson]

The best authority on these garments (I mean WW2 British smocks and overtrousers) is Martin Brayley. Although he qualifies his research by pointing out that there was a complete (?) lack of standardisation and that the variety of labelling and nomenclature is confusing and confused, I think he sums up the subject nicely in a several of his books. I think it is possible to put forward a tentative but fairly accurate typology of over-smocks and over-trousers.

For a chronology (you'll have to work at it) see Uniforms of the WW2 Tommy. Brayley makes the point that the tightness of the weave and colour of the fabric varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. He's right, I think, but there is a pattern as WW2 progressed. The type of smock that started this thread is shown on pages 62 and 63.

I have studied these items of clothing for many years and was once in the admirable position of having a late friend (Peter) who was an Army Commando instructor in WW2. He was familar with a number of the types of these garments as he trained Commando volunteers for mountain and desert warfare (Norway and North Africa) and they were issued with all types (except the early denim snow suit). Instructors tend to pay attention to clothing and remember details that serving soldiers do not.

First - let's dispel the 'windproof' myth. They are not always labelled as that and Peter told me that they were never called that at the time. They certainly aren't windproof - I know, I have tried them in the field!

Second - the SAS has no more connection with these garments than many other arms of service. A huge number of them were were made by a lot of manufacturers. They were issued in WW2 to troops for service in Northern Europe, Italy, Greece and Africa. A surplus supplier in London had so many 'smocks drab' left in stock after WW2 that the they were able to sell them to the MOD for issue in the First Gulf War in 1990!

The Youtube clip(s) of Operation Frankton have a reasonably accurate text, but the film clips are clearly from archives and don't necessarily fit the narration. Note that the narrator describes (correctly) a smock with a hem that can be fitted over and sealed to a cockleshell splash-deck (this later became the first pattern SBS smock) but the illustration is of a camouflage smock - clearly two different things. Hasler's men may have carried camouflage smocks, as they were expected to escape overland in the event of the naval extraction not working.

 

[Creeping Past]

the SAS has no more connection with these garments than many other arms of service. A huge number of them were were made by a lot of manufacturers.

A common enough case of garments being associated with particular usage, out of taking one instance for the whole truth, ignorance or wishful thinking.

You could have a whole wardrobe of such items. Here's a winter ensemble:

LRDG duffel coat
SAS 'windproof' smock
Commando cap comforter
RAF pilot's sweater

 

[H.Johnson]

...and on and on and on...

 

[Dudleydoright]

As far as I'm aware, the khaki smock, windproof was only used in the Aegean, Greece and Italy by the SBS / SRS / SAS and not in North Africa. The camo one was used by all sorts in the winter of '44 -'45 including ATS and infantry soldiers like my dear departed grandfather. Incidentally, he told me that the German reversible parkas were also used by a lucky few with the white side out. As were captured jackboots.

Dave

 

[H.Johnson]

Dave,

Certain Army Commando units (my late friend was in No. 6) were trained for the 'second phase' invasion of Norway that was cancelled. Instead, they took part in Operation Torch, going ashore with the US army in Algeria. They definitely took with them their issued first series (darker) khaki drill smocks and trousers, according to my late friend, who was there (he was awarded the MM).

Photos show you to be right about the use of German parkas in the Ardennes campaign in 1944-5. Usually the wearing of enemy uniform was officially discouraged, of course, but perhaps by that time in the war it didn't matter so much (or maybe white is safe enough in this regard?)

There are some photos (e.g. in the museum of the 'Glorious Glosters') of the same suits being used in the Korean War - and a similar garment, clearly worn over 1940 Pattern battledress, that I have not yet been able to identify. Do you know anything about this?

 

[Dudleydoright]

Some photos

Here's a few picks of some of my smocks.........

WW2 smock, drab.

Two-tone material referred to earlier.........

Label (sorry it's blurred)....

WW2 camo smock ...... colours are darker than in photo.

detail without flash for better colour match ....

Post WW2 green smock, windproof.........

Label ......

I would say that as far as I know, Briggs only made helmets like the Despatch Rider and Para models so if the company whomade the smock in the original post was the same one, that might be a clue to it being a fake. And bearing in mind that Pegasus Militaria made their name making WW2 repro Para helmets .......... maybe ?

Mr J. 'Cockleshell Heroes', Lucas describes very clearly a unit-made up suit for Op' Frankton. Different in so many ways to the smock thus far mentioned. Also in a rubberized fabric like for a Mackintosh for waterproofing I imagine you would sweat like hell in it. There were also other privately commissioned suits made by tailors for specific units from the CO's private funds and not at all documented.

In Korea, a lot of small run kit was made and I've had through my hands over the years some very unique garments dated around the early to mid 50's. I'm pretty sure the Commandos did use Denison smocks in Korea but also used a lot of US kit (helps to avoid 'Friendly Fire' too!).

I suspect that lots still remain to be uncovered and properly documented. A real Magnum Opus for someone with time on their hands !

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Creeping Past]

Very useful images, DDR.

so if the company whomade the smock in the original post was the same one, that might be a clue to it being a fake.

Sorry if this sounds pompous and/or obvious — and you'll no doubt have had this in mind when posting — but I think it should be made clear that if this item is being sold in the knowledge that it's a repro rather than an original it's the person selling who's putting a fake on the market, not the maker.

 

[Dudleydoright]

That's a fair distinction and one which I totally agree with. My posting wasn't aimed at the makers. Fake and repro are the same thing to me in this context although one is different to the other when it comes to buying and selling or mis-representing something.

And fake or repro, either way it ain't genuine !!

Dave

 

[Creeping Past]

As worn by these chaps. Still want one?

 

[BellyTank]

...Mr J. 'Cockleshell Heroes', Lucas describes very clearly a unit-made up suit for Op' Frankton. Different in so many ways to the smock thus far mentioned. Also in a rubberized fabric like for a Mackintosh for waterproofing I imagine you would sweat like hell in it...

I have a WW2 dated, British/broad arrow marked Anorak,
in the "rubberized" laminated cloth, which was used in mac's, despatch rider's coats and raincoats, etc.
My Anorak came from France and has a French made zip(per) at the throat.
I have seen 2 more identical examples, so mine is not the only example. Interesting?


B
T

 

[tamoko]

1990 Golfkrieg zipped Smock over Snugpak.

Same time no Zipper Reversible version.

 

[Dudleydoright]

I have a WW2 dated, British/broad arrow marked Anorak,
in the "rubberized" laminated cloth, which was used in mac's, despatch rider's coats and raincoats, etc.
My Anorak came from France and has a French made zip(per) at the throat.
I have seen 2 more identical examples, so mine is not the only example. Interesting?


B
T

It's no good regaling us with all these stories of things you have but telling us you don't have a camera. We'll start to wonder if you really have them !!

Show us the goods !!!!!

Dave the Gentile

 

[BellyTank]

I have a camera and will photograph tomorrow morning, if possible.
I was responding to the exciting mention of French/Anorak and wondering if there may be an explanation for mine.


B
T

 

[BellyTank]

Well-
Mr. Gasbags question as to the "authenticity" of the Smock was answered as
a resounding "looks good to me!" on a reenactors' forum.

http://www.wwiireenacting.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=57338&hilit=+windproof+smock

I'm not so sure.

B
T

 

[H.Johnson]

'Looks good' doesn't mean it's authentic?

 

[BellyTank]

I think the consensus on that forum was that it appeared to be the genuine article.
But the cloth looks like nothing I have seen in such a smock before.


B
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