Why were the 70s such a tacky decade?

[fashion frank]

Conversations take different paths all the time. I don't see a problem with it.

No thats not the point, the point is how do you make the leap from one topic to another topic in the same thread that to me has nothing to do with the original topic such as " slavery is why the 70's sucked ", come on now you've got to be kidding right ?

No harm meant to you I just find it incredulous, however nothing wrong with debating any finer points but again I'm just say its a stretch thats all .

All the Best ,Fashion Frank

 

[LizzieMaine]

It started with the usual "HAHAHAHA LOOK AT THE UGLY 70s CRAP." Then it moved into the socio-economic conditions of the '70s. Then it moved into a discussion of the root causes of those socio-economic conditions. Then it moved into a discussion of how those conditions were linked to trends in capitalism. Then it moved into a discussion of how those trends linked to past historic trends in capitalism. That led to a discussion of how the roots of American industrial capitalism connect to the slave-based agrarian economy of the early 19th century. And that led to a discussion of how those conditions continue to affect us today.

It's far from the most extreme topic drift we've ever had here -- it's actually pretty typical of any OB thread that's gone on for nearly a hundred pages. If you're among a group of people at a party and the discussion drifts from topic to topic, you just move on to another conversation if you get bored or annoyed with it. The OB is the same thing.

That said, I second, third, and fourth Sheeplady's last comment. Social evolution begins with questioning the assumptions upon which a society is based, and a society unwilling to evolve in that way is a society doomed to extinction.

On the other hand, if all people want to do is point and jeer at people who dress differently than they do, the folks at Film Noir Buff have just what you're looking for.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

I had totally forgotten about Film Noir Buff. They're sort of like the frat house down the street that disturbs the neighbors with their loud parties and drunken a$$hattery.

 

[LizzieMaine]

And if people think *our* threads drift, they ought to get a load of theirs....

 

[dh66]

'Roots' was on tv in the 70s.

 

[sheeplady]

I live in St. Louis, where race and class divisions are still painfully evident, yet I frequently meet fellow St. Louisians who are barely even aware of the problem. In fact, some claim there are no problems, at least none that have anything to do with them. Racism is a thing of the past, and the only lingering issues originate in the "bad" neighborhoods and ought to stay there. I find that beyond shocking. These are the folks who live "in the County," which circles around the western part of St. Louis City. The County is the home to all the McMansions iand country clubs in their gated communities, carefully patrolled by private security.

When people ask "but what can we do?" then I think is exactly the right question and one that I wish more of us would ask. The answer will be different for everyone, but I'm sure that just asking the question is a necessary first step.

I have to say, I have traveled to St. Louis only once in my life and spent about a week there. (My husband lived there for 3 years as a child.) One of the things that made me very uncomfortable is that I noticed that the Black/ African American staff and even random people I met in various places (restaurants, hotels, etc.) Ma'am-ed me and Sir-ed my husband to death. The few white staff and random people I met did not utter these "respect" indicators nearly as often, if at all.

It really felt like in every conversation I had with a Black/ African American person my race and theirs was being pointed out by the little word "ma'am."

It made me so uncomfortable. I started countering back with "ma'ams" and "sirs" and I got lots of looks of shock from people.

I say all this to point out that we all view these things through the lens of our own experiences, and to make sweeping generalizations about how "white culture" behaves may not be exactly conducive. Maybe I'm just naïve, though.

But the issue is that we whites often do that for other races. We lump. We say there is a "black culture," a "latino culture," and so on.

There are so many little things we do in our language and behavior that show that we somehow lump other groups together while holding our own group as default. I'll give you a simple little example.

Let's say describe a friend someone who is meeting them for the first time by themselves- such as spotting them in a train station. Let's play with two descriptions:
A. "She's about medium height, dark black hair, brown eyes, lots of freckles..."
B. "She's a black, about medium height, dark black hair, brown eyes, lots of freckles..."

If I use the first description, most people (including people of color) will assume my friend is white. This is an example of white being the default. If I don't describe a friend as black (which I have tried in the past as an experiment) I'm often told that it's relevant that they are black or I can say the term black or something along those lines. People will honestly not be able to find my black friend because I left out the race descriptor- while they could find my white friend.

I don't always say the race of my white friends, and that is an example of white being the default in my mind too. Describing my friend as black isn't the problem, it's the fact that I don't describe my friend who is white *as white.* That's because in some deep crevice in my mind, white is the default. I've picked up on this, likely very early in my childhood, that everyone will assume my friend is white, and this is how I need to talk about things.

White is the default in my head and I'm someone who's thought about it a lot. How does it work for other people who never have thought about it, even once?

 

[AmateisGal]

I have to say, I have traveled to St. Louis only once in my life and spent about a week there. (My husband lived there for 3 years as a child.) One of the things that made me very uncomfortable is that I noticed that the Black/ African American staff and even random people I met in various places (restaurants, hotels, etc.) Ma'am-ed me and Sir-ed my husband to death. The few white staff and random people I met did not utter these "respect" indicators nearly as often, if at all.

It really felt like in every conversation I had with a Black/ African American person my race and theirs was being pointed out by the little word "ma'am."

It made me so uncomfortable. I started countering back with "ma'ams" and "sirs" and I got lots of looks of shock from people.



But the issue is that we whites often do that for other races. We lump. We say there is a "black culture," a "latino culture," and so on.

There are so many little things we do in our language and behavior that show that we somehow lump other groups together while holding our own group as default. I'll give you a simple little example.

Let's say describe a friend someone who is meeting them for the first time by themselves- such as spotting them in a train station. Let's play with two descriptions:
A. "She's about medium height, dark black hair, brown eyes, lots of freckles..."
B. "She's a black, about medium height, dark black hair, brown eyes, lots of freckles..."

If I use the first description, most people (including people of color) will assume my friend is white. This is an example of white being the default. If I don't describe a friend as black (which I have tried in the past as an experiment) I'm often told that it's relevant that they are black or I can say the term black or something along those lines. People will honestly not be able to find my black friend because I left out the race descriptor- while they could find my white friend.

I don't always say the race of my white friends, and that is an example of white being the default in my mind too. Describing my friend as black isn't the problem, it's the fact that I don't describe my friend who is white *as white.* That's because in some deep crevice in my mind, white is the default. I've picked up on this, likely very early in my childhood, that everyone will assume my friend is white, and this is how I need to talk about things.

White is the default in my head and I'm someone who's thought about it a lot. How does it work for other people who never have thought about it, even once?

But don't you think *every* race does this, not just the white race? Don't you think the African Americans think there is a "white culture"? I think they must because I've heard a LOT of talk about "white people" and "white culture should do this", etc., etc. over the past few days. Twitter and FB have been a firestorm of this kind of talk.

ETA: I also think that this was different say, back in the 1940s, etc. It was the "Italian culture" or the "German culture" or the "Czech culture" or the "black culture" or the "Hispanic culture" or the "Greek culture."

Also, I hate labeling and saying "us" and "them." It's a form of "othering" and I'd just prefer to think of us all as human beings, period.

 

[Big J]

Social evolution begins with questioning the assumptions upon which a society is based, and a society unwilling to evolve in that way is a society doomed to extinction.

Ooh! That's nice! I like that! Can I use it in my next paper on Japan?

 

[Big J]

But don't you think *every* race does this, not just the white race? Don't you think the African Americans think there is a "white culture"? I think they must because I've heard a LOT of talk about "white people" and "white culture should do this", etc., etc. over the past few days. Twitter and FB have been a firestorm of this kind of talk.

ETA: I also think that this was different say, back in the 1940s, etc. It was the "Italian culture" or the "German culture" or the "Czech culture" or the "black culture" or the "Hispanic culture" or the "Greek culture."

Also, I hate labeling and saying "us" and "them." It's a form of "othering" and I'd just prefer to think of us all as human beings, period.

+1

I think all cultures do it.
I get Japanese people telling me 'foreigners do X' because they saw it in France, or on a TV show about Austria. The assumption is that all white people everywhere are the same.
Othering drives me mad. I get a taxi to run me home from the station when it's raining, and the taxi driver says;
'So, when you going home then?'
I reply 'Now'.
He says 'No, I mean going back to your own country'.

I guess it's just human nature; people ate overwhelmingly stupid and haven't evolved from the psychological framework of when we were tribal hunter-gatherers. Or maybe the human experience is just so complex that it couldn't be processed without these types of conceptual shorthands.

 

[sheeplady]

But don't you think *every* race does this, not just the white race? Don't you think the African Americans think there is a "white culture"? I think they must because I've heard a LOT of talk about "white people" and "white culture should do this", etc., etc. over the past few days. Twitter and FB have been a firestorm of this kind of talk.

ETA: I also think that this was different say, back in the 1940s, etc. It was the "Italian culture" or the "German culture" or the "Czech culture" or the "black culture" or the "Hispanic culture" or the "Greek culture."

Also, I hate labeling and saying "us" and "them." It's a form of "othering" and I'd just prefer to think of us all as human beings, period.

Yes, my point is exactly that- there IS a white culture. The fact that you point out is that it is recognizable to other races and therefore exists as much as other cultures do.

I think it's far worse to look at someone and have no appreciation for where they came from than to ask them what their experience has been. For instance, I think it's really important to listen to people who have experienced racism, rather than to repeat the mantra "we're all the same, we're all the same" as I've seen some people do when people of color want to have honest conversations. (Note, I am not talking about you specifically, but people I have observed time and time again.) Because we're not treated the same by society. It is not othering to try to understand someone's experience and understand their view of the world. It is not othering to refer to people by the names they would like to be called as far as race.

We may all fundamentally be the same, but that doesn't mean that society treats us as such.

The world is not color blind, pretending that it is just discounts those who experience racism. It is far more productive when someone comes to me and says, "I had this experience, this is what it feels like to be Black for me (or insert other race here)" that I listen. It is important that I put aside my defensiveness and my own judgements and listen to them. Not to get my hackles up and say, "Not all white people are racist!" and "we're all the same!" but to listen.

Chances are, because this person came to me and wanted to have a discussion with me, they do not believe I am a racist. What a rare opportunity for me to get to understand a perspective, even if a small slice, of something I cannot experience myself first hand. When we are looking for opportunities to heal, these are the times in which healing can take place. I really truly believe that, but we need to back away from our anger and defensiveness and just listen. People who have been victims are going to have anger. When we meet that anger with more anger we will not make any progress.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Ooh! That's nice! I like that! Can I use it in my next paper on Japan?

By all means.

 

[LizzieMaine]

We may all fundamentally be the same, but that doesn't mean that society treats us as such.

Precisely. Privilege isn't something that stems from any effort of your own. It's something society gives you because of the way society is structured. There are all kinds of privilege -- racial privilege, gender privilege, class privilege, heterosexual privilege, ability privilege, linguistic privilege, even right-handed privilege -- and none of them proceed from any effort or merit on the part of the person who receives them. They're simply built into the essential structure of the society in question. Here is an excellent article that explains, using the metaphor of right-handed privilege, exactly how privilege works.

 

[Big J]

By all means.

Thank you Lizzie

 

[sheeplady]

Precisely. Privilege isn't something that stems from any effort of your own. It's something society gives you because of the way society is structured. There are all kinds of privilege -- racial privilege, gender privilege, class privilege, heterosexual privilege, ability privilege, linguistic privilege, even right-handed privilege -- and none of them proceed from any effort or merit on the part of the person who receives them. They're simply built into the essential structure of the society in question. Here is an excellent article that explains, using the metaphor of right-handed privilege, exactly how privilege works.

Yes. And it's incredibly important to understand that *having privilege* or having it pointed out is not the same as being accused of racism. You can have all the privilege in the world and not be racist. The point of pointing out someone's privilege, in my experience, is to start a conversation.

The issue is that it often does take the other, the non-default, to point out that privilege. This is something the privileged need to get better at pointing out to those of the same privileged group. It's not up to people of color, with disabilities, etc. to teach those with more privilege what it is like to be discriminated against.

 

[jamespowers]

Ooh! That's nice! I like that! Can I use it in my next paper on Japan?

:rofl: You really are trying to get yourself kicked out of the country aren't you? lol lol

 

[Stearmen]

Reading this, I just realized, I have little interest in history during the time I have been alive. How many of you feel the same? For me, history basically ends on August 1945. The few things after that are all tied to WWII. Korean war piston driven airplanes, same with Vietnam! The first Israeli war, with Spitfires and Avia S-199s, Czechoslovakian built Bf109s. The Football War, 1969, because it was the last time in which WWII fighter planes faced off against each other! Incidentally, Corsair 1, Mustang 0. Although Captain Soto Henriquez, later used his F4FU to shoot down two Goodyear FG-1D Corsairs. And lets not forget, Dominican Republic Air force, who retired their P-51s in 1984, the last piston driven front line fighters in history! Can't think of much after that! I did like seeing the Canadian Air force C-47s when I landed at Pete Field, all gleaming in the sun! [video=youtube;RIRvEpZQENc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIRvEpZQENc[/video]

 

[Zombie_61]

Reading this, I just realized, I have little interest in history during the time I have been alive. How many of you feel the same?

I had never really thought about it before, but I'd have to say this is true for me as well...for the most part, anyway. I was born in 1961 and, as such, most of my memories of the 1960s relate specifically to my childhood rather than the era and/or the world at large, so I have a causal interest in that decade. Otherwise, I lived through the 1970s, 1980s, etc., and have no real desire to revisit those times.

 

[Big J]

:rofl: You really are trying to get yourself kicked out of the country aren't you? lol lol

Oh, that wouldn't be so bad! I'd love the cheap cheese, bacon, and steak!
Or maybe I should apply for citizenship? Then they'd be stuck with me!

 

[Fading Fast]

Precisely. Privilege isn't something that stems from any effort of your own. It's something society gives you because of the way society is structured. There are all kinds of privilege -- racial privilege, gender privilege, class privilege, heterosexual privilege, ability privilege, linguistic privilege, even right-handed privilege -- and none of them proceed from any effort or merit on the part of the person who receives them. They're simply built into the essential structure of the society in question. Here is an excellent article that explains, using the metaphor of right-handed privilege, exactly how privilege works.

Lizzie, hi, what do you mean by "ability privilege?" I understand the phrase on a literal level, but was hoping you could provide context around how you mean it here. Thank you.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Ability vs. disability. The privilege those of us who are able-bodied enjoy over those who have disabilities.