Why were the 70s such a tacky decade?

[vitanola]

If slavery is a sticking point for you then you will need to write off the greatest civilizations in history known to man because ALL of them had it. Rome, Egypt, the Incas, The Aztecs etc., etc. Every continent on this globe has had slavery on it at some time in their history. That is the way it was. We have to judge a society based upon the standards at THEIR time---not ours otherwise we write off ALL of humanity trying to be PC.

Surely you are being pointedly obtuse, are you not, James?

In this particular case the sticking point is not slavery as such, but your apparent assertion that a largely slave economy was a "pure capitalist" society. Now there are some who might agree with you, but they would generally be so very far to the left, I think, that they may be disregarded in this discussion. The Enlightenment thinkers almost to a man considered chattel slavery to be a hold over from another age. Adam Smith was quite firmly of this sentiment, as I'm sure you know. My objection, which I believe I clearly stated, was to the supposition that an economy based upon any sort of slavery other than Fitzhugh's infamous "wage slavery" is most emphatically not a "purely capitalist" economy in any reasonable modern interpretation of the term.

Now there is one particular talented economist who did, in fact, believe that chattel slavery was the very foundation of Capitalism: "Before the slave trade in Negroes, the colonies supplied the Old World with but very few products and did not visibly change the fact of the world. Slavery is thus an economic category of the highest importance..."


“Direct slavery is the pivot of our industrialism today as much as machinery, credit, etc. Without slavery you have no cotton, without cotton you have no modern industry. It is slavery that has given value to the colonies; it is the colonies that created world trade; it is world trade that is the necessary condition for large-scale machine industry”


“Without slavery, North America, the most progressive country, would be transformed into a primitive country. You have only to erase North America from the map of nations and you will have anarchy, the total decay of commerce and of modern civilization. But to let slavery disappear is to erase North America from the map of nations”

 

[LizzieMaine]

When people ask "but what can we do?" then I think is exactly the right question and one that I wish more of us would ask. The answer will be different for everyone, but I'm sure that just asking the question is a necessary first step.

I think the thing a lot of people have trouble with is that they think of it purely in individual terms. I think most white people are conditioned to do that as a direct byproduct of their class privilege -- when you're white, you can relax in the assumption that everything is about individual acts, not the mechanics of class power, so they become defensive when challenged on race issues and say "well, *I* didn't do this or do that, I don't have a racist bone in my body, some of my best friends, etc." And that, they think, frees them of any further concern on the point.

But they don't understand that it *isn't about individuals.* Institutional and systemic racism are the real problem -- the fact that our entire society and the entire system that controls that society is structured in a way that has always afforded and continues to afford unearned privilege to white people simply by virtue of their being white. It's a class question, not an individual question, and while it's important for every individual to do what they can to root out elements of this in their own lives, eventually we'll have to challenge on a class basis many of the basic foundations of this society in order to really solve the problem.

 

[Stearmen]

I leave this thread for a couple of weeks, and now I am totally confused! What exactly does the bad taste of the 70s have to do with slavery? Sorry to all the non U.S. Americans on this sight, you must be shaking your heads in bewilderment.

 

[vitanola]

I might also suggest that many northern competing industries perhaps disdained southern economies richly prospering and getting away with practically free labor rather that a moral deep concern about owning other human beings during that time period.
HD

Well, Smith was pretty influentials among the economically educated individuals of the early Nineteenth Century, and his estimation of chattel slavery was that it was in most respects more expensive and less efficient than free labor, but was difficult to get rid of due to the psychic satisfactions gained from domination.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

I leave this thread for a couple of weeks, and now I am totally confused! What exactly does the bad taste of the 70s have to do with slavery? Sorry to all the non U.S. Americans on this sight, you must be shaking your heads in bewilderment.

It's called topic creep.

 

[Mystic]

I leave this thread for a couple of weeks, and now I am totally confused! What exactly does the bad taste of the 70s have to do with slavery? Sorry to all the non U.S. Americans on this sight, you must be shaking your heads in bewilderment.

I have been reading through this blather and it now seems that the Tackiness of the 70s was a direct result of slavery and white privilege. [huh]

 

[LizzieMaine]

Thread's 95 pages long. It's a wonder it hasn't crept into an entirely different forum by now.

But if people insist, let's bring the two parts of the discussion together.

 

[vitanola]

I have been reading through this blather and it now seems that the Tackiness of the 70s was a direct result of slavery and white privilege. [huh]

I don't know about other folks references to that peculiar institution, but I was merely responding to an assertion, incorrect in my view, that our economy in the early National Period was pure free-market Capitalism. I was not referring to the moral arguments for or against the institution, save, perhaps, for those of the estimable Mr. Fitzhugh, who asserted that the conditin of slavery would be a positive benefit to nine-tenths of human society, regardless of race.

Besides which, the corruption and scandal of the '70's, combined with the excreable taste of those happily lost days at legendary. In one decade the Gold Corner, the Army-Navy Procurement scandal, the Whiskey Ring, and the infamous "Corrupt Bargain" combined with general offenses to taste and sense such as the Sheath Gown, Neo-Grec, and Second Empire really do recommend the title of "Tackiest Decade" to the Age of Grant.

 

[AmateisGal]

I think the thing a lot of people have trouble with is that they think of it purely in individual terms. I think most white people are conditioned to do that as a direct byproduct of their class privilege -- when you're white, you can relax in the assumption that everything is about individual acts, not the mechanics of class power, so they become defensive when challenged on race issues and say "well, *I* didn't do this or do that, I don't have a racist bone in my body, some of my best friends, etc." And that, they think, frees them of any further concern on the point.

But they don't understand that it *isn't about individuals.* Institutional and systemic racism are the real problem -- the fact that our entire society and the entire system that controls that society is structured in a way that has always afforded and continues to afford unearned privilege to white people simply by virtue of their being white. It's a class question, not an individual question, and while it's important for every individual to do what they can to root out elements of this in their own lives, eventually we'll have to challenge on a class basis many of the basic foundations of this society in order to really solve the problem.

To my way of thinking, it *must* start with the individual because it is the individual that influences the rest of their peers. A "class" cannot change unless an individual changes first.

 

[fashion frank]

I leave this thread for a couple of weeks, and now I am totally confused! What exactly does the bad taste of the 70s have to do with slavery? Sorry to all the non U.S. Americans on this sight, you must be shaking your heads in bewilderment.

+1 ???????? I remember someone on this Forum stating something to the effect that " every responce does not have to be an essay " fftopic:

All the Best,Fashion Frank

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

I have been reading through this blather and it now seems that the Tackiness of the 70s was a direct result of slavery and white privilege. [huh]

I think you might be on to something.

 

[AmateisGal]

+1 ???????? I remember someone on this Forum stating something to the effect that " every responce does not have to be an essay " fftopic:

All the Best,Fashion Frank

Conversations take different paths all the time. I don't see a problem with it.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Besides which, the corruption and scandal of the '70's, combined with the excreable taste of those happily lost days at legendary. In one decade the Gold Corner, the Army-Navy Procurement scandal, the Whiskey Ring, and the infamous "Corrupt Bargain" combined with general offenses to taste and sense such as the Sheath Gown, Neo-Grec, and Second Empire really do recommend the title of "Tackiest Decade" to the Age of Grant.

Corny haircut -- check.

Urban-lumberjack beard -- check.

Ill-fitting vintage suit coat -- check.

Ironic bow tie -- check.

The '70s are making a big comeback nowadays, and you can see where they get it from.

 

[sheeplady]

I think the thing a lot of people have trouble with is that they think of it purely in individual terms. I think most white people are conditioned to do that as a direct byproduct of their class privilege -- when you're white, you can relax in the assumption that everything is about individual acts, not the mechanics of class power, so they become defensive when challenged on race issues and say "well, *I* didn't do this or do that, I don't have a racist bone in my body, some of my best friends, etc." And that, they think, frees them of any further concern on the point.

But they don't understand that it *isn't about individuals.* Institutional and systemic racism are the real problem -- the fact that our entire society and the entire system that controls that society is structured in a way that has always afforded and continues to afford unearned privilege to white people simply by virtue of their being white. It's a class question, not an individual question, and while it's important for every individual to do what they can to root out elements of this in their own lives, eventually we'll have to challenge on a class basis many of the basic foundations of this society in order to really solve the problem.

Agreed strongly.

I've never had to wonder as a white woman if the color of my skin kept me from getting a job, an apartment, or a loan. But I've seen and heard other people be denied such things based upon their race in covered terms such as "oh, this person wouldn't fit in with our culture," or "perhaps they would feel more allegiance to their sub-group (race) than to the institution," etc.

I don't think about my race most days, because no one brings it up.

Neither my family (a technical impossibility) or my husband's (individuals are documented as against slavery) owned slaves in the United States. But I don't pretend that I don't benefit from a system where I have a leg up based upon my race, in a country where slavery was an economic engine (and Jim Crow and sharecropping, the descendents of slavery) that benefited white people. Imagine how much more competition I'd have to face for any job or apartment or anything if I had to compete with everyone and there were no sub-par inner city schools or racist interviewers. White is the default in this country, and being white opens up doors for me.

Even saying that about myself will make some white people nervous. "But I *worked* for what I have. No one gave me a silver platter." And "I grew up poor!" and "I was abused!" and "I started out cleaning toilets!" and "I went to night school" and "I put myself through school!" and on and on. But imagine how much harder that would have all been if your gradeschool teacher had looked you in the face and called you a n***** and treated you accordingly.

While society and the political pundits "demand" that Muslims decry terrorism, we whites get offended when we're asked to decry the actions of a racist murdering terrorist pig who went into a house of worship and gunned down a group of strangers because of "white culture." Because heaven forbid someone lump us into one category as a race as we so often do for everyone else- "why aren't black leaders denouncing black on black crime?" "why aren't Muslim's denouncing these jihadists?" are relevant questions but "why aren't white people denouncing this white supremacist?" is considered downright offensive by some people.

Well, now the shoe's on the other foot for us white people. Time we start denouncing the stuff done in our name too.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Corny haircut -- check.

Urban-lumberjack beard -- check.

Ill-fitting vintage suit coat -- check.

Ironic bow tie -- check.

The '70s are making a big comeback nowadays, and you can see where they get it from.

U.S. Grant...the Original Hipster

 

[Zombie_61]

Corny haircut -- check.

Urban-lumberjack beard -- check.

Ill-fitting vintage suit coat -- check.

Ironic bow tie -- check.

The '70s are making a big comeback nowadays, and you can see where they get it from.

Yeah...the 1870s. lol

 

[dh66]

I live in St. Louis, where race and class divisions are still painfully evident, yet I frequently meet fellow St. Louisians who are barely even aware of the problem. In fact, some claim there are no problems, at least none that have anything to do with them. Racism is a thing of the past, and the only lingering issues originate in the "bad" neighborhoods and ought to stay there. I find that beyond shocking. These are the folks who live "in the County," which circles around the western part of St. Louis City. The County is the home to all the McMansions iand country clubs in their gated communities, carefully patrolled by private security.

When people ask "but what can we do?" then I think is exactly the right question and one that I wish more of us would ask. The answer will be different for everyone, but I'm sure that just asking the question is a necessary first step.

I am in Birmingham. The situation is the same here as well (although, admittedly, not as bad at the moment). In some aspects that tackiness of the 70s still lingers here. There are many who are, as you say, oblivious to the problem, but for every one of them there are still a dozen more who are outright hostile in their views

 

[AmateisGal]

I think it really depends on where you grew up as to how you view race relations. I grew up on a farm outside a small town in western Nebraska (town population of 1,600). There was a very sizeable Hispanic population but no African Americans. I never saw a difference between me and my Hispanic friends. They were just my friends. That's it. I still don't see them in terms of their race.

We never had to contend with race relations like folks in the South or other areas of the country as far as African Americans, so maybe that's why I view it differently. Now I know that my grandparents' generation did in terms of the Hispanic population - my mom has told me how she wasn't allowed to play with the Hispanic kids, but she did anyway. By the time I was born, that attitude wasn't there. At least, I never saw it.

I say all this to point out that we all view these things through the lens of our own experiences, and to make sweeping generalizations about how "white culture" behaves may not be exactly conducive. Maybe I'm just naïve, though.

 

[dh66]

Thread's 95 pages long. It's a wonder it hasn't crept into an entirely different forum by now.

But if people insist, let's bring the two parts of the discussion together.

He was only doing the "will of the voters". That dude was slick as grease, but the one we have now is doing an admirable job of that same old song and dance. His proposals for "education reform" are outright horrifying.

And I went back through the thread from the beginning this morning. The racism and oppression of minorities of the time has already come up, so this isn't much of a new turn.

 

[dh66]

I leave this thread for a couple of weeks, and now I am totally confused! What exactly does the bad taste of the 70s have to do with slavery? Sorry to all the non U.S. Americans on this sight, you must be shaking your heads in bewilderment.

Well....I certainly hope they are not shaking their heads while simultaneously thinking their hands are any more clean. It's not like it, nor any of it's ills that followed, is/was a uniquely American situation.

As to bad taste, I guess it all just goes to show that it is something that is timeless.