Why the X

[HATCO]

I originally had this post in reply to a thread about Nutria. It's so long and really has nothing to do much with the 1st post of the original thread...I'm just going to make this post, its own thread.

I'm bringing this article back up b/c I feel it deserves a continuation. I'm sure everyone is aware of my long absence. I won't go into details but suffice it to say this last year has been very hard for me personally. Anyway lets start shall we.

I'll preface all of this by saying I'm a terrible liar. It's easier for me just to be transparent and tell the truth. So that's what I do. In some ways thats not good for someone in a marketing position
Why do we use X's? Why don't we just list the mixture or the ratio?

I brought this up in a meeting months ago. You may not agree with the reasoning of it but we had a healthy debate about it for half an hour. This really revolved around western hats and not dress hats. While I don't agree with all of the argument I understand the underlying reasons behind it.

1st a little info that some may already know. There are 3 main staples of fur that usually make up a fur felt hat (I'm not counting Nutria)

Beaver, Hare, and Rabbit. Most know this. However within those three there a total of nine different qualities. I haven't gotten permission to post those so I won't.

What determines the qualities of the fur?

Type of Skin
Enviroment and Season
Age
Color of fur
And the process used to get the fur. (Cleaning method, shearing depth, Carrotting etc)

This is for illustrative purposes only. I do not know the ratios of fur mixtures. I am going to pick an odd arbitrary number for the X.

Lets say we have a 12X hat, (no such thing as a 12X hat) and we list the ingredients of the hat.

50% Rabbit

30% Hare

20% Beaver

Suddenly we've given our competitors an advantage. They can make a hat or they can say a hat is 40% Rabbit 35% Hare and 25% Beaver and label it as a 12X or a 9X or whatever and sell it cheaper.

How is that possible How could they sell it cheaper? It's got more of the good stuff!

Remember there 9 levels of quality of fur between Beaver Hare and Rabbit.

Well I'm going to break the rule I set for myself above and just explain it so there's no confusion. Hopefully this is not hidden knowledge.

Without getting too specific there are 3 levels of Hare fur:

Strongest to Weakest

Turkey Back
Double Ring
Single Ring

So we can make a hat that is 50% Beaver and 50% Turkey Back Hare.
It's going to be listed as 50% Beaver and 50% Hare (b/c really what is turkey back or double ring going to mean to the average consumer?) Are they willing to get that deep into it? I say no.

Our competitor can make a hat that is 50% Beaver and 50% Single Ring Hare. A lesser quality hat. If they choose to put a tag of ingredients on there it's just going to say 50% Beaver 50% hare. The same tag as ours even though it's lesser quality hat.

Joe Q Public looks at our hat:

18X 50% Beaver 50% Hare $400

Joe Q Public looks at our Competitors hat:

18X 50% Beaver 50% Hare $350

If he trusts our brand and our quality and believes in our brand he'll buy our hat.

If he is concerned about cost 1st, he is more likely to buy the competitors hat b/c the tags both list the same ratio.


It just turns into another arms race with a chance to commit a lot of subterfuge. While you could certainly prove a finished hat was 50% Beaver 50% hare, I don't think you could determine the quality of the hare throughout the hat once it has been made into the final product. The best test would be by hand and feel, but that's not very scientific.

If we were to list the ingredients, we would have to educate the buyers at the stores, the salesman at the stores and finally the customers at the stores. I think that is a tall order.

Also keep in mind that stores can benefit from this to. This can happen in Western stores. I'm tired but I hope this makes sense.
Our price / quality is fixed and known in the western customers mind.

Lets say a Stetson 4X hat wholesale costs $90 and the western store sells them for $180. If we pretend there's no overhead just to keep everything simple thats a profit of $90 or a 100% margin.

That same store buys cheap lower quality imports from Brand Z listed as 4X but they only pay $30 for them.

They don't turn around and sell that hat for $60 for a profit of $30 or a 100% margin. They might mark them up to $120. thats a profit of $90 or a 300% margin. If you were a store owner which would you be tempted to push? Think about it. You as a customer would probably question the quality of a 4X hat if it was marked at $60 retail when compared to ours. You'd be less likely to question it if it was priced closer to ours. Are we happy about stuff like that when it happens? No of course not. We just try to make the best hats possible using the best materials in a factory in Texas that has been here since the 1930's. I can't speak for past presidents or regimes. Nor can I speak for the current one. I will say that he is committed to quality and honesty. I try to follow in his footsteps because I think it is he right way to approach things.

I hope you guys can take me at my word. We are proud of our hats. I know we get bashed here regularly. Some of it I think is unfair, but please know that problems that are brought to my attention I will try to answer and fix.
Like I said, we are proud of our hats. We want to continue to be.

 

[Hoss & da Posse]

Wow...I'm new here, not familiar with your Co and don't know your product but I'm impressed with the information you share. The more I hang around this place, the more I realize what I thought were ice cubes is really the tip of an iceberg. Yesterday, I thought there were different types of fur in the felt and today I find out it matters if the lil fellers were having a good or bad hair day and if it was belly or back hair ...my head is swimming. From a new guys perspective, I can appreciate your dilemma...I went into my closet and looked at the hats I had purchased over the years. Other than a nice Resistol 4x beaver western, the others were typically wool felt of various styles. When purchased, I considered the look and the pricepoint. I had no knowledge of material, no sales person to educate me as to how it might benefit me to upgrade, etc. Most often, my hats were purchased in western clothing stores...Thanks for enlightening me, Hoss

 

[Hoss & da Posse]

Well, that's embarrassing...

After my post, I googled up your Co. only to find that you "are" Resistol...So I guess I am familiar with your Company. I do love my Resistol Hats (a black winchester crown and a straw, my wife loves her straw, too). Do you make fedoras, too? The website that came up only shows western wear...

 

[HATCO]

After my post, I googled up your Co. only to find that you "are" Resistol...So I guess I am familiar with your Company. I do love my Resistol Hats (a black winchester crown and a straw, my wife loves her straw, too). Do you make fedoras, too? The website that came up only shows western wear...

Resistol no longer makes Fedoras. Hatco makes Fedoras in it's other lines. Stetson and Dobbs.

I'm happy that you like your Resistol. I love all of mine.

 

[Lefty]

All of this tells me that an educated consumer shouldn't buy anything other than a 100% beaver hat from someone such as Art, or a blend from a small company that can always be relied upon for quality, such as Optimo. From what you've been able to say, anything else is a crap shoot.

Making the information about HATCO felt blends public, if they are superior to other, similarly marked or priced hats, might actually make me more likely to purchase at HATCO product. Personally, the less I know about a product, the less likely I am to purchase it. Stetson and Dobbs certainly don't have the reputation, at least among hat wearers, that they once did. For many here, their first hat might be a modern Stetson or Dobbs but, if they begin to learn about hats, it will also probably be their last such modern hat.

 

[Mark G]

Great post, very interesting.

I've got a question about Sterling or Silver beaver hat's. I've been seeing in adds for high end westerns in magazines touting their $10,000.00 hats as Silver beaver and other have mentioned Sterling. Do you know if there is such a thing or is it marketing hype?

 

[HATCO]

All of this tells me that an educated consumer shouldn't buy anything other than a 100% beaver hat from someone such as Art, or a blend from a small company that can always be relied upon for quality, such as Optimo. From what you've been able to say, anything else is a crap shoot.

Making the information about HATCO felt blends public, if they are superior to other, similarly marked or priced hats, might actually make me more likely to purchase at HATCO product. Personally, the less I know about a product, the less likely I am to purchase it. Stetson and Dobbs certainly don't have the reputation, at least among hat wearers, that they once did. For many here, their first hat might be a modern Stetson or Dobbs but, if they begin to learn about hats, it will also probably be their last such modern hat.

The only hats of ours where we list the ingredients is when the hat is 100% Beaver. The Pinnacle, The Baldwin, and the Pelham all have 100% Genuine Beaver stamped into the sweatband. I think our reputation gets bashed a little here undeservedly. I've only been here 3 years but from what I gather past regimes played the game with quality and price. That was probably a mistake, and we are being punished for their choices in the past that happened 5 years ago. I hope that you'll give our current felt a try. If you have any problems with it I would like to know b/c I care about the perception of our company. I know there are those on this board that have never had any trouble with our current line up of felts and say so.

 

[AlanC]

First, Hatco, welcome back. It's an asset to the board that you are here, and I think your presence and willingness to address issues can only help the Stetson name (and that of the other Hatco brands). I hope your health issues have been resolved in a positive way.

Second, everyone make sure you use your manners with Hatco. He is right that bashing Stetson is often a favorite pasttime around here. The Nostalgia project shows that we can have a positive impact on Stetson. Let's build on that, not tear it down.

Of course, open and honest dialogue and criticism is always welcome from everyone.

Having said that, you post this:

It just turns into another arms race with a chance to commit a lot of subterfuge.

That is true from one perspective, but the problem is since there is no standard for what an 'X' is, anyway, what does that matter? Can't any company list any number of 'X's using its own in-house and unrevealed standard (as Stetson does)?

You are correct that it will ultimately boil down to company brand and reputation, but as you acknowledge Stetson has itself played fast and loose with that in recent years. I think ultimately the only way to build trust again is with true transparency.

Thanks for joining in the debate, HATCO.

 

[HATCO]

First, Hatco, welcome back. It's an asset to the board that you are here, and I think your presence and willingness to address issues can only help the Stetson name (and that of the other Hatco brands). I hope your health issues have been resolved in a positive way.

Second, everyone make sure you use your manners with Hatco. He is right that bashing Stetson is often a favorite pasttime around here. The Nostalgia project shows that we can have a positive impact on Stetson. Let's build on that, not tear it down.

Of course, open and honest dialogue and criticism is always welcome from everyone.


That is true from one perspective, but the problem is since there is no standard for what an 'X' is, anyway, what does that matter? Can't any company list any number of 'X's using its own in-house and unrevealed standard (as Stetson does)?

Absolutely. As an example there are companies that use bodies that are analogous to our 4X bodies. They may market them as a 8X or 10X hat but at a 4X price.

The price of fur in it's various qualities is variable over time just like other commodities but it is pretty much locked in to a certain range over time. You get cost savings by economy of scale. The more you buy the more you save. I'm sure there is haggling over the price of the fur but I don't think our competitors are getting hand over fist better deals for the fur.

You are correct that it will ultimately boil down to company brand and reputation, but as you acknowledge Stetson has itself played fast and loose with that in recent years. I think ultimately the only way to build trust again is with true transparency.

Thanks for joining in the debate, HATCO.

Well, we've tried transparency on some hats and generally the stores don't like it. We have had hats that have no X's . The marketing for the hat was this is 100% Genuine Furfelt made of beaver hare and rabbit. X's won't tell you the quality of the felt but holding it in your hand sure will.. etc... You know feel the quality. Stores didn't want it. They want the X's. Like it or not, public consensus is that we are the barometer for X's. We are the mean. If you have 3 10X hats, one is Stetson and the the other 2 are different competing brands Y and Z; Chances are the customer is going to compare brand Y to Stetson and then Brand Z to Stetson before he compares Y against Z. And Like I said earlier the X system can benefit a store.

They can buy a lower quality hat make it a 10X and price it competitively to make a much larger profit margin. If we got rid of X's that kind of throws that game out the window. Stores don't want that to happen. They want the X's b/c it benefits them when dealing with a price conscious consumer. They can make more money off that type of consumer.

It wasn't health issues for me. Others in my family. They have largely been resolved.

 

[HamletJSD]

Fantastic post :eusa_clap

Thanks for your willingness to share, Hatco. I have no Stetson experience except with my vintage Open Road (I am sure long before your company took over), but your openness is surely a positive step.

All businesses jump through these similar hoops, so we understand at some level. Even on the smallest scale, I ran a paint business years ago and it was just too much trying to explain to customers why X company was cheaper because they used cheaper paint ("But the use the same brand of paint as you do?" "Yes, sir, but there are many different quality levels even within the same company." ... "But ... they are ... cheaper than you ... ...")

Anyway, we love having you here!

 

[Lefty]

This is a fantastic reply. I'm glad to see that you guys are paying attention again. It seems that the company has plenty of rebuilding to do, but it would sure be nice to see Stetson and Dobbs even close to what they once were.

Us too. The only hats of ours where we list the ingredients is when the hat is 100% Beaver. The Pinnacle, The Baldwin, and the Pelham all have 100% Genuine Beaver stamped into the sweatband. I think our reputation gets bashed a little here undeservedly. I've only been here 3 years but from what I gather past regimes played the game with quality and price. That was probably a mistake, and we are being punished for their choices in the past that happened 5 years ago. I hope that you'll give our current felt a try. If you have any problems with it I would like to know b/c I care about the perception of our company. I know there are those on this board that have never had any trouble with our current line up of felts and say so.

 

[Hoss & da Posse]

Seems to me that HATCO would need to market to two completely different consumers: The one I was yesterday and the one I will be tomorrow...
Yesterday, I bought on name recognition, style and price point; tomorrow, I hope to buy based upon an educated decision which relies less on name recognition and more on "value" (i.e., quality of felt vs $) and, as always, style...
I do know this...the more I know about something, anything, in fact, the more I'm willing to spend when I do make a purchase. My first flyrod was a low-end Orvis; my 2nd one was a better value even though it was substantially more money.
Thanks again, Hatco, for educating folks like me

 

[tortswon]

Weighing in

As a newbie here, I missed the previous flame throwing that went on regarding Stetson and Dobbs. I've taken a look at the archives and gotten a flavor of the extent of the bad feelings among many experienced and respected members of this forum. Passion is a wonderful thing and it is inherent in all real hobbyists regardless of the hobby (watches, pens, razors, knives, guns, etc., etc.). It is apparent to me (and I am speaking only for myself), that Hatco is trying to turn the page for the company. Recognizing problems is the first step to solving them (I have plenty of other platitudes but I will spare all of you). I love the idea of seeing a resurgence in American manufacturing, especially with well known brands such as Stetson and Dobbs. I'm not ready to jump under one of their hats yet based upon what I have read but if Hatco keeps me informed through the Lounge of what progress is being made, I will be one of the first in line to buy a hat. My 2 cents (currently worth 1/20,000 of a Euro). Best, Sam

 

[The Outlaw Kyle]

Hatco,
I find your posts very interesting. I think the position of Non-custom hat makers in the market is precarious one. I can only imagine that you struggle with keeping your price reasonable, not sacrificing quality, AND (the big one) keeping production domestic, as your market simply would not accept a "Made In China" Stetson. I would guess that a majority of your customers buy a hat, probably a cowboy one, on a lark, wear it once or twice to a line dance, and then it sits at the bottom of the closet. I can, of course, offer no advice. I can offer some examples.

Look at Winchester Firearms. They were in a VERY similar position (I would guess), similar market, similar QC issues. After 1964, Winchester lost a lot of street cred, tried and tried to get it back, and eventually lost. They had to compete with a better design (Marlin's 336) that could be made cheaper with better quality. The 1894 and M70 could not be made cheap. In my opinion, they should have ceded the the low end of the market to others, and made a quality rifle, capitalized on there name, and made Quality Job 1. Why sell two junky 1894's for $300 when you can sell 1 nice one for $700?

Example 2: Akubra. They are doing something very, very right, and with rabbit (hare?) felt. Hats Direct does brisk business selling all over the world. Here is a suggestion: Why not get Akubra to make a few models for you and rebadge them as HATCO brands? If they have the price point and quality, why not? Not your Stetson Cowboy models (see above) but your dress/fashion hats.

If I could walk into a department store, pick up, try on, a Stetson fedora, with the same level of quality as Akubra, for the same OR slightly more, I would buy that over the Akubra. Unfortunately, I may not be a good example of your market.

Good Luck, Hatco, and thanks for being involved here.:eusa_clap

 

[HATCO]

Hatco,
I find your posts very interesting. I think the position of Non-custom hat makers in the market is precarious one. I can only imagine that you struggle with keeping your price reasonable, not sacrificing quality, AND (the big one) keeping production domestic, as your market simply would not accept a "Made In China" Stetson.

I agree. I'm going to attempt to not talk specifically about other brands. People will accept other brands though that are made in China.

Example 2: Akubra. They are doing something very, very right, and with rabbit (hare?) felt. Hats Direct does brisk business selling all over the world. Here is a suggestion: Why not get Akubra to make a few models for you and rebadge them as HATCO brands? If they have the price point and quality, why not? Not your Stetson Cowboy models (see above) but your dress/fashion hats.

Thats not going to happen for a whole raft of reasons. I'll just leave it at that.

If I could walk into a department store, pick up, try on, a Stetson fedora, with the same level of quality as Akubra, for the same OR slightly more, I would buy that over the Akubra. Unfortunately, I may not be a good example of your market.

The first thing we need to do is get fedoras in department stores. If you've ever gone to the hat section of a department store (if you can find one!) You'll find they are all S-M-L with cloth sweatbands stacked on top of one another. We make fitted hats with leather Sweatbands that sit in boxes. Sizes 6 3/4 through 7-3/4 Thats 9 sizes. BESDOR can correct me on it (I don't know) but a full size run for one style would probably be about 24 hats with the bulk of them between sizes 7 and 7 3/8's Department stores don't want to keep stock like that and we don't really do S-M-L sizes.. In all honesty unless there is a huge "sea change" You won't find sized fitted hats in a department store.

Good Luck, Hatco, and thanks for being involved here.:eusa_clap

Thanks

 

[barrowjh]

glad to see Hatco back amongst us, and I appreciate your response to my questions about the nostalgia vs windham.

I tried to discuss some pragmatic fur mix topics here after having visited Winchester Hat Corp, but didn't get many takers. Jeff Teters was kind enough to give me a very informative tour, and I saw bales of various grades of hare, rabbit, and beaver. There are varying grades within beaver. I thought that the belly fur, the softest, would be the most expensive, but I was wrong. The extra steps involved in bleaching out the natural tan color causes the bleached beaver to be the most expensive.

It was also explained to me that there is no such thing as a 100% this or that fur felt; I was told that 'all-the-same' fur just would not felt, so it had to be a blend. I got the impression that it was not enough to blend different grades of beaver, but that the blend would include at least some hare or rabbit to make a reasonable felt (and of course they are not going to reveal just how much!).

Which brings me to the pragmatic reality that a good quality felt is a lot more than just the 'name' fur that went into the blend. Could a blend of top-shelf hare and rabbit compare favorably to standard grade beaver? I suspect so - only in the last year or so have posts here acknowledged that vintage hats only had beaver in them if the sweatband or liner mentioned it. Posts from prior years reflected the opinion that the 'buttery soft' felts of 1930s-40s Stetson, Borsalino, etc were beaver, when in fact almost none of them included any beaver, or only a small amount to strengthen the felt.

There were so many variables in determining a superior hat; the quality of the felt going in, the amount of effort in the felting, the curing or aging of felt, the finisher's efforts in sanding and attention to detail, quality of ribbon, thread, and leather.

Unless you are comparing one felt to another side by side, by hand & sight, you cannot tell which you would like better. Trying to determine 'quality' of the finished hat from just a list of critters' fur that was used in the felt is delusional.

 

[tonyb]

Please know, barrowjh, that I'm not disputing anything you posted. And I'm in general agreement with your fundamental point -- that there are considerations other than the critter of origin in assessing the quality of any hat felt.
But ... that bit about there being no such thing as a 100 percent beaver or rabbit or any other kind of animal fur hat body is at odds with several other accounts. Either that, or "all" or "100 percent" means to the hat manufacturer and/or hat body maker something other than what "all" or "100 percent" means to just about everybody else. Several hat manufacturers offer what they call an "all beaver" or "100 percent" beaver hat. And the people I get my hat bodies from offer "staple" (rabbit fur, they tell me) and "all beaver" bodies. And they also make what they call a "blend."
Now, if what we're getting isn't really "all" or "100 percent," well, I want to know, seeing how I don't wish to mislead anyone by passing along less than 100 percent accurate information. I can say without reservation that their all-beaver bodies are plainly superior to the staples and to what is commonly available in "off the shelf" hats.

 

[SGT Rocket]

Cool

Just read your posting HATCO. It's marketing 101. Very fascinating about all the types of fur and stuff.

I did service marketing for Tektronix Inc. for a few years, and we similar issues in the technology sector (lower priced imports vs our premium brand). It was mostly with oscilloscopes and stuff an not hats ~obviously.

 

[SGT Rocket]

OMG

Resistol no longer makes Fedoras. Hatco makes Fedoras in it's other lines. Stetson and Dobbs.

I'm happy that you like your Resistol. I love all of mine.

OMG, so you guys are Resistol, Stetson, and Dobbs? My grandfather always wore a Stetson. I wish I had a picture of him scanned so I could send it to you and ask you which one it was. I would like to buy the same cowboy hat. I may try to find his old picture in a few days and post it on this forum.

I bought a Resistol 8X straw in Austin Texas (where I went to college, I was raised in Houston, I now live in Minnesota) At Allan's Boots on S. Congress Dr. I love the hat. As a matter of fact, I just went and put it on to write this email~ my wife thinks I'm a nut. lol

 

[SGT Rocket]

I would guess that a majority of your customers buy a hat, probably a cowboy one, on a lark, wear it once or twice to a line dance, and then it sits at the bottom of the closet.

I'm not so sure about this. I know lots of people back home, not too many hear in Minnesota, that actually wear a cowboy hat just because it's what they've always done.

When I was a child, I didn't wear one that often because my mom didn't want me to look like a "redneck." Well, a lot of my friend wore hats growing up~ mostly cowboy hats. Anyway, I'm 40 now, and I've had three operations to get skin cancer off of my scalp. I think the more skin cancer gets around, the more people will begin to wear hats again.

I always wear my Resistol out in the sun when I'm working. I wear my Stetson panama (in fedora style) hat in the sun when I'm just toolin around. I have been a "hat ambassador" to everyone in my Natl Guard unit and amongst my friends. I've even convinced my wife to wear hats outside. True, we don't live in a sun state anymore, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.