Why did you sell your nearly new aero leather jacket(s)?

[KBlake]

No I’m not suggesting Italians can’t be stylish. I said that well dressed Italians have always pulled most strongly from a British influence (since the 1700s) in response to the suggestion that there’s no British style. Even Sicilian village wear came from this British influence.

What I did say is that the average Italian is pretty badly dressed, as is the average Frenchman, Englishman, or American. Because the other guy’s suggestion was “Italians know best therefore lamb skin is best”—when the reality is everyone except TFL types primarily has lamb skin. (I’m not even anti lamb skin!)

The “Made in Italy” (itself a marketing term) stuff is largely fraudulent anyway. It’s usually either made outside and gets an Italy label stitched on in final packaging there or it’s made in giant workshops of Chinese laborers, while the brands peddle an image of their local craft and so on.

“All major fashion designers are Italian” is has never been the case. Even as couture goes it’s been mainly a French endeavor. Yes, Italians got more involved since the 60s but not more so than the Americans or the English or in more recent years the Japanese.

The comparison of fabric to steel is doesn’t land. Fabric isn’t a raw material; it essentially tells you what the garment is and how it’ll drape. Half the art of tailoring is the selection of fabric, iron work, etc. And I gave you other examples as well of how Italian menswear directly grew out of British menswear.

I’m not going to continue arguing this, because I don’t care, but your arguments leave a lot to be desired, most of all consistency.

 

[KBlake]

Wow, this is an awful lot of historical ambiguity. What era are you discussing and how far back to you care to trace the origins of fashion? I lived for a number of years in Italy and my impression was always that Italian fashion is distinctly different from British fashion.

The claim that "Sicilian village wear came from this British influence..." is incredible to me. I'm not even sure what it means. There is significant Italian folk fashion traditions in most areas of Italy and they have absolutely nothing to do with the UK. I'm so surprised anyone would make such a claim that I have to suspect I don't understand what exactly is being said.

As for "the average Italian is pretty badly dressed..." that's totally subjective.

I don't know much about high fashion but certainly a LOT of the major fashion brands are Italian. A disproportionate number and enough to lend validity to it as a counter-argument to your position, which seems to be something like "Italians don't know anything about fashion and stole all their ideas from the Brits." Sorry if that's not your position but that's what it sounds like.

You have always struck me as far more reasonable than this, so I'm hoping to get some clarity from you because these remarks just don't hold water imo.

This.

 

[Aloysius]

Wow, this is an awful lot of historical ambiguity. What era are you discussing and how far back to you care to trace the origins of fashion? I lived for a number of years in Italy and my impression was always that Italian fashion is distinctly different from British fashion.

I'll take this step by step. I was going to come back to it later with more sources on hand but realized that would just end up being a case of forgetting to respond after the initial delay.

So first off, basically all menswear, everywhere is downstream from early 19th century English clothing. Indeed the best fashion plates (these were reference images used by tailors) of what Englishmen were wearing were produced in France and Italy. This is because they were adopting these styles and therefore learning them.

Now of course these adaptations took different directions while staying within the general language of menswear. In some cases the changes were a matter of climate, even, or lifestyle.

The claim that "Sicilian village wear came from this British influence..." is incredible to me. I'm not even sure what it means. There is significant Italian folk fashion traditions in most areas of Italy and they have absolutely nothing to do with the UK. I'm so surprised anyone would make such a claim that I have to suspect I don't understand what exactly is being said.

I think you took it as a bit wider than I meant it. I was thinking of the example of the Sicilian coppola, which is an English-style country flat cap. I used this as an example because it's a relatively remote area compared to something like the more direct early 20th century adoption and codification of English style by Italian tailors.

And yes there are absolutely Italian folk clothing traditions of their own. I often wear bright Casentino cloth, a traditional weatherproof wool from Tuscany that's arguably an analogue to tweed–done up in Naples as an Ulster coat. The Neapolitan version of an Ulster coat maintains its range of coverage, but leans in deeply to the drape cut that came to Italy via Caraceni.

As for "the average Italian is pretty badly dressed..." that's totally subjective.

The average person everywhere is badly dressed today. I bought that up because the whole initial claim was "Italians know best". This doesn't really land, nor is the specific claim that was made actually true about Italy (that there is some special Italian preference for lambskin).

I don't know much about high fashion but certainly a LOT of the major fashion brands are Italian. A disproportionate number and enough to lend validity to it as a counter-argument to your position, which seems to be something like "Italians don't know anything about fashion and stole all their ideas from the Brits." Sorry if that's not your position but that's what it sounds like.

You have always struck me as far more reasonable than this, so I'm hoping to get some clarity from you because these remarks just don't hold water imo.

I didn't say "Italians don't know anything about fashion and stole all their ideas from the Brits." I'm making the point, which I'm surprised is not universally known on this forum, that menswear as we know it comes from Britain.

I did push back against the claim that all, or even most, designers are Italian. There are certainly a number of Italian fashion brands, of varying levels of quality.

And the whole reason I brought up the fact that Italians don't inherently know better was because of someone claiming that they do.

I don't know how this landed on some Great War to defend Italy from me; in another thread, Marc and I were just talking about the high quality work done by the factory Caruso in Italy.

As should have been pretty clear from my examples in this thread alone there's quite a lot of Italian menswear that I admire (and own) myself. But the idea that there is some magic Italian quality to knowing best, as MadCat suggests, is simply misinformed.

Italian suppliers are infamous for unreliability in the fashion industry–this has caused a funny situation where often the Asian factories turn in better work and on time compared to the Italian equivalents but customers especially in China won't buy the Asian made stuff. In some cases they sent people from the Italian factories to go train at the Asian counterparts. And of course ironically the Italian factories themselves are staffed just about entirely by Asian immigrants (again, nothing wrong with that, but the Italians use "Made in Italy" as a form of branding to indicate mystical family ateliers, not unlike the watch industry uses "Swiss Made" for something that is simply cased in Switzerland.)

 

[MadCat]

No I’m not suggesting Italians can’t be stylish. I said that well dressed Italians have always pulled most strongly from a British influence (since the 1700s) in response to the suggestion that there’s no British style. Even Sicilian village wear came from this British influence.

What I did say is that the average Italian is pretty badly dressed, as is the average Frenchman, Englishman, or American. Because the other guy’s suggestion was “Italians know best therefore lamb skin is best”—when the reality is everyone except TFL types primarily has lamb skin. (I’m not even anti lamb skin!)

The “Made in Italy” (itself a marketing term) stuff is largely fraudulent anyway. It’s usually either made outside and gets an Italy label stitched on in final packaging there or it’s made in giant workshops of Chinese laborers, while the brands peddle an image of their local craft and so on.

“All major fashion designers are Italian” is has never been the case. Even as couture goes it’s been mainly a French endeavor. Yes, Italians got more involved since the 60s but not more so than the Americans or the English or in more recent years the Japanese.

The comparison of fabric to steel is doesn’t land. Fabric isn’t a raw material; it essentially tells you what the garment is and how it’ll drape. Half the art of tailoring is the selection of fabric, iron work, etc. And I gave you other examples as well of how Italian menswear directly grew out of British menswear.

No I’m not suggesting Italians can’t be stylish. I said that well dressed Italians have always pulled most strongly from a British influence (since the 1700s) in response to the suggestion that there’s no British style. Even Sicilian village wear came from this British influence.

What I did say is that the average Italian is pretty badly dressed, as is the average Frenchman, Englishman, or American. Because the other guy’s suggestion was “Italians know best therefore lamb skin is best”—when the reality is everyone except TFL types primarily has lamb skin. (I’m not even anti lamb skin!)

The “Made in Italy” (itself a marketing term) stuff is largely fraudulent anyway. It’s usually either made outside and gets an Italy label stitched on in final packaging there or it’s made in giant workshops of Chinese laborers, while the brands peddle an image of their local craft and so on.

“All major fashion designers are Italian” is has never been the case. Even as couture goes it’s been mainly a French endeavor. Yes, Italians got more involved since the 60s but not more so than the Americans or the English or in more recent years the Japanese.

The comparison of fabric to steel is doesn’t land. Fabric isn’t a raw material; it essentially tells you what the garment is and how it’ll drape. Half the art of tailoring is the selection of fabric, iron work, etc. And I gave you other examples as well of how Italian menswear directly grew out of British menswear.

I'll take this step by step. I was going to come back to it later with more sources on hand but realized that would just end up being a case of forgetting to respond after the initial delay.

So first off, basically all menswear, everywhere is downstream from early 19th century English clothing. Indeed the best fashion plates (these were reference images used by tailors) of what Englishmen were wearing were produced in France and Italy. This is because they were adopting these styles and therefore learning them.

Now of course these adaptations took different directions while staying within the general language of menswear. In some cases the changes were a matter of climate, even, or lifestyle.



I think you took it as a bit wider than I meant it. I was thinking of the example of the Sicilian coppola, which is an English-style country flat cap. I used this as an example because it's a relatively remote area compared to something like the more direct early 20th century adoption and codification of English style by Italian tailors.

And yes there are absolutely Italian folk clothing traditions of their own. I often wear bright Casentino cloth, a traditional weatherproof wool from Tuscany that's arguably an analogue to tweed–done up in Naples as an Ulster coat. The Neapolitan version of an Ulster coat maintains its range of coverage, but leans in deeply to the drape cut that came to Italy via Caraceni.



The average person everywhere is badly dressed today. I bought that up because the whole initial claim was "Italians know best". This doesn't really land, nor is the specific claim that was made actually true about Italy (that there is some special Italian preference for lambskin).



I didn't say "Italians don't know anything about fashion and stole all their ideas from the Brits." I'm making the point, which I'm surprised is not universally known on this forum, that menswear as we know it comes from Britain.

I did push back against the claim that all, or even most, designers are Italian. There are certainly a number of Italian fashion brands, of varying levels of quality.

And the whole reason I brought up the fact that Italians don't inherently know better was because of someone claiming that they do.

I don't know how this landed on some Great War to defend Italy from me; in another thread, Marc and I were just talking about the high quality work done by the factory Caruso in Italy.

As should have been pretty clear from my examples in this thread alone there's quite a lot of Italian menswear that I admire (and own) myself. But the idea that there is some magic Italian quality to knowing best, as MadCat suggests, is simply misinformed.

Italian suppliers are infamous for unreliability in the fashion industry–this has caused a funny situation where often the Asian factories turn in better work and on time compared to the Italian equivalents but customers especially in China won't buy the Asian made stuff. In some cases they sent people from the Italian factories to go train at the Asian counterparts. And of course ironically the Italian factories themselves are staffed just about entirely by Asian immigrants (again, nothing wrong with that, but the Italians use "Made in Italy" as a form of branding to indicate mystical family ateliers, not unlike the watch industry uses "Swiss Made" for something that is simply cased in Switzerland.)

All I said was Italians are on top when it comes to fashion. Are they not?

Also when choosing a garment, I will almost always choose the one that says “made in Italy”. They make quality products, sometimes the best even.

PS - I am European, but not Italian.

 

[Aloysius]

All I said was Italians are on top when it comes to fashion. Are they not?

They are not. They have a presence but even as womenswear goes the French and even the Japanese have a far stronger showing.

Also when choosing a garment, I will almost always choose the one that says “made in Italy”. They make quality products, sometimes the best even.

"Made in Italy" is usually a red flag unless you know more about the garment/factory (like Caruso, Sant'Andrea, and several others that are excellent). The vast majority of "made in Italy" things are simply imports that get a "Made in Italy" tag sewed on them, which counts as a production step and therefore qualifies it as Italian.

They actually very cleverly worked this scam into the legal system. There is a regulation that requires Italian production in order to label, but it's a trick. It isn't for the "Made in Italy" label, which explicitly by law can be granted just for a final step (which, yes, can be simply adding a label!)

It is only a product that is labeled «100% made in Italy», «100% Italia», «tutto italiano» (to use the three phrasings from the law) that actually needs to be made in Italy.

PS - I am European, but not Italian.

That was clear. I don't know any Italians in the menswear space who would disagree with anything I said in the above posts. It is Americans and non-Italian Europeans who get defensive about it.