White Tie - Double striped trousers

[Happy Stroller]

I think that the tailors of the time were far less fussy than we are! "It needs a stripe; put a stripe...Where? on the side of the leg, where do you think??"lol

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I agree with you, Shindeco, but I am still wondering how they sew the stripes without any stitching showing. And how the original tailors sew the stripes over the seam to protect the seam. Also, whether it was a braid between the two stripes which was actually placed over the seam, and somehow combined with the 2 stripes so that no external stictching would be exposed to any accidental wear and tear.

If such things could be known, we can make a full dress pants that is sartorially more correct, I hope.

 

[manton]

I am still wondering how they sew the stripes without any stitching showing.

It's sort of hard to explain, but here goes.

First, consider how a normal trouser side seam is sewn. Imagine the trouser back and foreparts. To make the seam, you lay them one on top of the other, the showing sides facing each other, the inside sides facing the air (or table, as the case may be; outward, in any event). You sew the seam along the entire length of the edge, some distance away from the edge. The amount of distance depends on how much inlay, or excess cloth, has been left in the trouser leg by the cutter. That distance between the cut edge and the seam is called the "seam allowance."

Once the seam is sewn, you lay the assembled fore and back parts down on the ironing board, showing (outer) side down, and you press open the seam allowances. They should lie completely flat, and point away from each other. On the showing side, all you see is a line where the two pieces of cloth join; you won't see any stitching.

With formal trousers, the grosgrain (or satin) stripe acts as a third "part." Forepart, stripe, backpart. The above stitch is thus done TWICE, to join the forpart to the stripe, and then the backpart to the stripe. In both cases the stitch is made on the inside, but instead of being pressed open, is pressed flat and closed, each set of seam allowances facing inward (i.e., facing each other). Thus, again, you see no stitching at all on the outside.

And how the original tailors sew the stripes over the seam to protect the seam.

As noted, it's not really to protect the seam; its part of the seam. However, the origin of this stripe was as a covering to protect (or hide) the buttons on the sides of cavalry breeches, so that is perhaps where this notion comes from.

Also, whether it was a braid between the two stripes which was actually placed over the seam, and somehow combined with the 2 stripes so that no external stictching would be exposed to any accidental wear and tear.

In all likelihood, the above-described double stripe is a one-piece assembly sewn exactly the same way as single-stripe formal trousers.

 

[Orgetorix]

With formal trousers, the grosgrain (or satin) stripe acts as a third "part." Forepart, stripe, backpart. The above stitch is thus done TWICE, to join the forpart to the stripe, and then the backpart to the stripe. In both cases the stitch is made on the inside, but instead of being pressed open, is pressed flat and closed, each set of seam allowances facing inward (i.e., facing each other). Thus, again, you see no stitching at all on the outside.

So the forepart and backpart aren't sewn to each other at all on the outside of the leg? That's interesting.

 

[manton]

So the forepart and backpart aren't sewn to each other at all on the outside of the leg? That's interesting.

That's the way I have seen it, mostly. Of course, it would be possible to make the trousers normally and then attach the stripe(s) via a lap seam on each side. But for the seams not to shout, they would have to be done by hand, and that would be a pain in the ass. The tailor would have to fold a minute seam allowance in under the stripe on each side to ensure that the edge is not exposed. In the case of white tie trousers, with four total stripes each with two edges, you're talking about eight hand-laps from waistband to hem. Yikes! When you request this from your trousermaker, be sure to duck.

 

[Orgetorix]

When you request this from your trousermaker, be sure to duck.

I'll keep it in mind, but I don't think I'll be able to use the phrase "my trousermaker" for a while.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

It's official: our Fedora Lounge has been body-snatched by the Ask Andy and London Lounge forums.


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[Happy Stroller]

That's the way I have seen it, mostly. Of course, it would be possible to make the trousers normally and then attach the stripe(s) via a lap seam on each side. But for the seams not to shout, they would have to be done by hand, and that would be a pain in the ass. The tailor would have to fold a minute seam allowance in under the stripe on each side to ensure that the edge is not exposed. In the case of white tie trousers, with four total stripes each with two edges, you're talking about eight hand-laps from waistband to hem. Yikes! When you request this from your trousermaker, be sure to duck.

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The modern stripes come in standard rolls, with the edges already folded. That means the stripe is placed with its back facing the outside of the trouser seam; so the stitching shows. But the advantage is that attaching the stripe can be carried out at a later stage and with less pre-planning.

For the stitching to not show, stitching can be done by machine, which is much neater if lesser-skilled labor is employed. And, as Manton mentions, for the double stripe version, the double stripes can be assembled into one single strip (incorporating two satin stripes with an intervening self-facing [i.e., material same as trousers'] stripe, say) first.

For the stitching to not show, the trick is to get the stitching done before the waistband is attached and the ends of the legs are finished. The problem only arises when one wishes to alter a pair of pants from single stripe or no stripe to double stripe. So, at the new tailoring stage, there should no fear of mortal danger. At the alteration stage, someone will be laughing all the way to the bank and it won't be the one who owns the pants.

 

[Tomasso]

I'll keep it in mind, but I don't think I'll be able to use the phrase "my trousermaker" for a while.

There are tailors a every price-point. From Asia to Savile Row.

 

[manton]

It's official: our Fedora Lounge has been body-snatched by the Ask Andy and London Lounge forums.


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Hey, we're all in this together against the track suit brigades. Right?

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Hey, we're all in this together against the track suit brigades. Right?

When it comes to being "comrades in the Revolution", I'm more a Menshevik than a Bolshevik. Extremism of any kind repels me.

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[manton]

When it comes to being "comrades in the Revolution", I'm more a Menshevik than a Bolshevik. Extremism of any kind repels me.

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Well, no worries, then. There won't be a revolution. And if there were, the people trying to restore classic dress would all end up on the guillotine.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I do sympathize. Still, practically all items of classic dress that were around in the the '30s are still available today: they're just more elusive (and usually a lot more expensive). Seems the only thing that isn't made anymore is a decent white buck belt.

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[manton]

Still, practically all items of classic dress that were around in the the '30s are still available today: they're just more elusive (and usually a lot more expensive).

Tell me about it.

Seems the only thing that isn't made anymore is a decent white buck belt.

You can get that bespoke. Cleverley comes to Los Angeles ...

 

[Marc Chevalier]

You can get that bespoke. Cleverley comes to Los Angeles ...

True. You can get an original '30s one, too: http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showpost.php?p=193152&postcount=1


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[Happy Stroller]

I do sympathize. Still, practically all items of classic dress that were around in the the '30s are still available today: they're just more elusive (and usually a lot more expensive).
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Don't any of you chaps worry too much about the fate of classic dress. There're several hundred million Chinamen who can't wait to dress up like gentlemen in impeccable 1930's Western clothes. They only need a few more years to figure out how to make them properly. By the end of the decade, the World will be seeing a hundred million or more Chinese gentlemen walking around in Morning Dress during the day and dancing and dining in White Tail at night, while ironically only perhaps ten thousand American men per day will be so dressed only because it happened to be their wedding day.

Folks, better stock up on all those gray striped material and rolls of satin/grosgrain stripes before prices shoot through the roof!

 

[manton]

My book is actually being translated into Chinese, if you can believe that. It's the only foreign rights I've sold so far.

 

[Happy Stroller]

That is wonderful to hear.

I apologize for my utter ignorance, Manton, but could you please kindly tell us the title of your book?

 

[manton]

That is wonderful to hear.

I apologize for my utter ignorance, Manton, but could you please kindly tell us the title of your book?

It is called The Suit. I wanted to call it The Dandy, but my publisher wouldn't let me.

 

[Happy Stroller]

Hope you're not kidding us, Manton, because the author of The Suit is a Mr. Nicholas Antongivanni. But if you're really HIM, Wow! Sir, I can only express delight and say that it is a great privilege to be acquianted with such a world-class authority on sartorial matters. I have even ordered a bespoke blazer following your four button, etc., specifications, but it is in Gabardine because I don't know what serge is and also because I thought the waterproof characteristics of Gabardine would make the jacket practical for use in a marine environment/tropical climate.

 

[manton]

No, that is really me. I'm glad you liked it.

Serge is sort of hard to find these days. I can't, off the top of my head, think of a currently circulating book that has it. You have to dig around fabric shops and pester jobbers for it.