Which bi-swing back design is best?

[MinhNhat]

I have a custom A2 jacket from 5*. When I wear it, I feel the arm movement is uncomfortable. I couldn't comfortably lift my arms. Now, I am looking to buy a custom flight jacket from 5*. With bi-swing back and underarm gusset, I believe I can move my arms comfortably.
But there are too many designs for the bi-swing back.
According to everyone. Designs 1 or 2 will help me have a full range of movement.
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The first design is Gibson-Barnes jacket. With that design, the back is very clearly.
I l like this desigh very much
I also owned G&B Cwu45p . But when I put my arm out in front. The bi-swing back doesn't inflate much. How do you think about this design

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The second design of bi swing back is G1 jacket.
When Arms movement. Not only the arm moves, but a part of the back also moves along. As picture below. The jacket has no bi-swing back on the arm. The back swing ball is located at the lower arm.

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I like the G1's back design. But the lower leather (red rectangle), I don't like it at all. I want a back with one piece leather.

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If the G1's design is more useful. I will choose.
All I want is a jacket that fits, and has full range of movement arms
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I want to know your opinion about two designs. And the reason why you chose that design. Thanks!

 

[TooManyHatsOnlyOneHead]

You're going to get different opinions. For me, I really don't like the look of a full action back (cut that runs most of the length). Feels too Janet Jackson 1990s music video for me. But I don't ride, so I'm looking more for fashion sleekness/minimalism vs comfort. If you ride, you're probably going to have a different opinion.

From the jackets I've owned, the simple shoulder gusset is a good compromise. I have an Aero Sheene (no gusset) and Aero Cafe (with shoulder gusset). The specs and cut are almost the same. But the difference between the Sheene and Cafe on how it fits is night and day. I don't get as much of the usual Aero neck lines, much more range of motion, just more comfortable for lack of a better word and I feel like I'm not compromising the look.

There's going to be a lot of factors in addition, like arm hole size, arm hole placement, is the jacket the right size for you to begin with, etc.

I have a Schott 141 that has a deeper gusset and the underarm football as it's called. It was way too busy in the back for me. All the leather never settled properly and just bunched up. Was comfortable has heck, but looked sloppy. So I tailored it to sew down the gusset and modify the cut. I don't have before and after, but trust me, it's a whole new jacket.

My Schott 118 however has the shoulder gusset plus the football and it works a lot better. Very comfortable, but from side view, it's not a sleek look. Not as minimalist as the Aero I posted above.

I got a G1 style 5* and I had them remove the biswing and the football. I compensated by adding a little more (.5 inch) to the shoulder. It's not my most comfortable jacket, but it isnt bad either. So if you're going with 5* that will allow that customization, that's a good compromise too.

the other factor is leather type. Horsehide CXL no biswing/gusset, tight fit, well.... It's going to be a while before you feel comfortable in it if you want a snug fit. Something like goat, lambskin, etc. you can push the envelope more and maybe getaway without them.

 

[TooManyHatsOnlyOneHead]

Oh, also forgot to mention. For the biswing to work properly (it's basically an elastic that runs across your upper back), you have to have the right size. Most of the time people think you went too tight and it's not allowing the jacket to rest. That could be the case. But sometimes you actually went too big and the elastic is never activated. That was part of the problem with my 141. So if you do get something with the elastic, make sure you have the right size so the elastic pulls everything back in when at full rest. I'd say you're better off being slightly tight rather than slightly loose, otherwise that elastic won't do anything for you.

 

[dlite90]

My A2 from FiveStar also limited my arm movement.
It seems like there was too much material on the lower back and not enough on the upper back. However Shawn was very gracious and offered a 20% discount on a second order when I didn’t even ask.

 

[Carlos840]

There isn't an answer to the question you are asking.
There isn't a best action back design, the comfort of a jacket is achieved by the total design, not just a single piece/element.
Some jackets with shoulder gussets are comfortable, some are not, some jackets with underarm gussets are comfortable, some are not, some jackets don't need any special action back to feel amazing and give full range of motion.

Even different makers using the same design will not all achieve the same comfort.

To me it is something that varies according to makers, some are great at understanding how the human body works and how do build a jacket that restricts movement as little as possible (Langlitz and Lewis come to mind), some makers make jackets that look good on a mannequin but feel like straight jackets.

 

[Psant25]

on this jacket above I lowered the back yolk 1 in. From stock. I could tell a difference on the fit jacket. Arms straight toward front i felt a little more pull at the back seam as compared to when it was higher. On the finished jacket I cannot tell. I was a little worried. I thought about lowering the yolk to match the arm seams but that would make the gussets pretty useless so then you might as well delete them like a lot of the old cals. More to do with the cut of arm holes, rotation of arms, etc

my langlitz columbia below had a gusset by look but there was really no piece of leather that expanded

a few JLs ive had have a gusset up to the top. Pics below. Very functional but not a huge fan of the gusset being that visible

 

[Psant25]

Here is another variation like yours above I thought about for my chp. Top im not sure prlly cal. Bottom is vanson chp

 

[Seb Lucas]

I have a custom A2 jacket from 5*. When I wear it, I feel the arm movement is uncomfortable. I couldn't comfortably lift my arms. Now, I am looking to buy a custom flight jacket from 5*. With bi-swing back and underarm gusset, I believe I can move my arms comfortably.
But there are too many designs for the bi-swing back.
According to everyone. Designs 1 or 2 will help me have a full range of movement.
-------
The first design is Gibson-Barnes jacket. With that design, the back is very clearly.
I l like this desigh very much
I also owned G&B Cwu45p . But when I put my arm out in front. The bi-swing back doesn't inflate much. How do you think about this design

-----
The second design of bi swing back is G1 jacket.
When Arms movement. Not only the arm moves, but a part of the back also moves along. As picture below. The jacket has no bi-swing back on the arm. The back swing ball is located at the lower arm.

----
I like the G1's back design. But the lower leather (red rectangle), I don't like it at all. I want a back with one piece leather.

----
If the G1's design is more useful. I will choose.
All I want is a jacket that fits, and has full range of movement arms
----
I want to know your opinion about two designs. And the reason why you chose that design. Thanks!

If your A2 or any jacket with a one piece back doesn't allow for movement it is likely to be a poor fit or poor pattern making. How a jacket is cut can influence fit more than an action back. It's about how the arms are installed in the body and how large the armholes are.

Gibson and Barnes jackets are generally well cut for movement (they have years of experience fitting military people) but often grossly oversized with enormous pit to pits and fit like sacks unless you buy a size or two smaller than your usual. Fit and pattern making skill are critical.

That said in a flight jacket a G1 action back will allow for full movement pretty well and better than most A2's. If you are after a bike jacket, a Vanson will fit better than a Schott or many others as they have worked out the fit of their patterns.

Five Stars are unlikely to have the pattern making expertise of some of the other makers and just because you have an action back in your specs will not guarantee that it works. However the Five Stars I have owned (4 now) have had no issues with free movement - one was a cafe racer with no action back and I coudl easily lift my arms and move about.

 

[willyto]

Langlitz and Lewis come to mind

Lewis make a damn good jacket with a lot of movement. The Universal MKII is a masterpiece in that regard.

 

[Carlos840]

Lewis make a damn good jacket with a lot of movement. The Universal MKII is a masterpiece in that regard.

And it has no action back, no gussets, no footballs, nothing.
I agree, that jacket is a masterpiece.

 

[ProteinNerd]

For actual freedom/range of movement and not just looks IMO underarm gussets are the best.



I have them on my ELMC Windward and despite it being one of my trimmest fitting jackets I have it has the best range of motion of any jacket I've ever owned...even over sized jackets.

 

[MinhNhat]

Thank you everyone for the great comments.
I will still ask Shawn to make G1 jacket with the same back as G & B jacket. Because I like the Bi-swing back design of G&B.
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I will send my body measurements to Shawn. And ask him for advice on that Bi-wing back design. With a cost of about 500 $. I think 5 * is the only choice. Because I can't find a company that makes custom leather jacket for under $ 500.
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With the A2 jacket I asked Shawn to do it last time. I just sent him the designs and measurements from the Bronson b15 jacket. With 2 different materials. Measurements and fit vary. The big mistake comes from me. From that A2 jacket, I gained more experience with the measurements and patterns.
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This time I'll ask him more about everything from measurements, patterns, the effectiveness of the under arm gusset and the back swing ball. That way I will have a perfect jacket

 

[Seb Lucas]

I
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I like the G1's back design. But the lower leather (red rectangle), I don't like it at all. I want a back with one piece leather.

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By the way, that rectangle as you call it is actually called a half-belt and is a period feature to my eye one of the highlights of the G1's cool looking back design which has gone unchanged for decades. A good vintage G1 in worn goat is one of the great joys of the jacket world.

 

[El Marro]

By the way, that rectangle as you call it is actually called a half-belt and is a period feature to my eye one of the highlights of the G1's cool looking back design which has gone unchanged for decades. A good vintage G1 in worn goat is one of the great joys of the jacket world.

View attachment 296537

I would have to agree with you Seb. I find a one piece back to be rather boring. Yes it is shows that you used a large single piece of hide to make it but beyond that it is visually quite dull.

 

[MinhNhat]

With G&B design. I think it should only be called bi-swing back .
With the G1's design, it's called full action back. So with the G1's design, I will have more room to move.
With G & B's jacket. The arm hole wide. This will make the ball swing back very wide. That doesn't look good.

 

[Seb Lucas]

I agree the G&B jacket looks terrible from the back. Many of them do and not just the bi swing back versions. It is the poor and outsized cut of the jacket. Remember that a jacket is not just the design idea, it is also how that idea is executed by the pattern maker.

In the case of G&B as you rightly point out, it's ridiculously wide arm openings, wide pit to pit and squat back panels. I generally fit a size 44 jacket - in G&B I fit a 38. Getting a fancy action back to work properly is not easy I do not know if Five Stars can do it. Wested have been making action back Indy style jackets for decades and they hardly ever work properly.

 

[MinhNhat]

I think so.
Fivestar can do bi-swing back like G&B jacket. But it will not work perfectly yet If I choose G&B designs, it's hard for Shawn. And the cost could be higher. So. I chose the original G1 design.

 

[racontour]

By the way, that rectangle as you call it is actually called a half-belt and is a period feature to my eye one of the highlights of the G1's cool looking back design which has is thus gone unchanged for decades. A good vintage G1 in worn goat is one of the great joys of the jacket world.

View attachment 296537

What brand is this particular G1 jacket?

 

[racontour]

I think so.
Fivestar can do bi-swing back like G&B jacket. But it will not work perfectly yet If I choose G&B designs, it's hard for Shawn. And the cost could be higher. So. I chose the original G1 design.

The USN G1 was and is a great design. My only beef is it has buttons not snap closure buttons. But other than that, that jacket has bi swing back favored by motorcycle riders be they policemen or bikers. They need it the most as the vehicles they ride demand a lot if freedom of movenent.
An A2 would require a fuller fit or a one size up as some people may wear sweaters or sweat shirts with hoodies, also desire more freedom of movenent if ridingva motorcycle. A2 were design for young slim men who flew in a cramped quarters called a cockpit of an airplane and movenent was limited to movement of switches and a control stick. Only the initial climbing into a combat plane required more arm movement.

If your activities do not require an extreme amount of movement then a regular fit A2 is great. If more required then wear one size up.

If your movement require more extreme movenents with arms like motorcycle riders than a G1 USN jacket might be the one for you.

If money were no problem then LOST WORLDS INC can custom build you a jacket in either horse, goat or cow hide. But be decisive and accurate with them.


Also do you like fur collar or no fur collar. Some firms offer the USN Surface Warfare Officer jacket which is every bit a G1 but with no fur collar. Again the shirt button closure on the pockets would be something that is ok with you. SWO officially come in black but some firms give you an option color.