What Happened to Chivalry?

[Geesie]

But seriously ... nothing is new under the sun.

And people have been saying that since at least 4th century BC! lol

 

[Thunderbolt]

Gentlemen and Chivalry in the 21st Century

Well this came up with me for the past few days in my ponderings as I often do, also reading the thread "The Lost Art of Manliness". Since I have not read the book, I thought it be better if I not post in that discussion. I've been watching youtube videos on arguments as to weather chivalry is dead. Dave Chapelle's statement of "Chivalry is dead and women killed it" I find funny and in some cases true. We all have to face the 21st century post femminist movement world of PC and multi-culturalism. How does a man, here in the 21st Century (some of us having Victorian era values) be a Chivilrous Gentleman? I hear horror stories of men opening doors for a lady or pulling a chair only to recieve a negative response from the said lady. I have not had that expierience since high school (six years ago). But if we don't, then we're pigs. What is a fedora tiping man to do? Women want to be our equals but some also still demand chivilry. As a woman rips you in the meeting, you're still to open the door for you as you walk out the room? Thoughts?

 

[Tomasso]

 

[Miss 1929]

Other people's bad behavior is never a reason for you to stoop to their level.

My husband is the most chivalrous man I know - and he applies those rules about chairs and doors to women, and also to men who are older, more infirm, etc.

Really, politeness should have nothing to do with the other person, and should come from you wanting to be of service. And it is its own reward.

So keep on being the gentleman you want to be!

 

[Shangas]

Modern manners and chivalry is a mess of double standards, political correctness and indifference.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Chivalry is not dead........

Kind of strange if you ask me. So the fair young maiden's sneakers do not get dirty? This can get expensive..:eusa_doh:

I think this is more effective...

....and a lot more fun..

 

[Edward]

TBH, in my personal experience, negative "feminist" reactions to chivalrous behaviour are akin to nothing so much as "the war on Christmas".... I've seen about as much evidence of either in my own life as I have reds under my bed.... [huh] The nearest I've seen to a woman attacking a man for offering her a seat on the tube was a man using the alleged possibility of such an occurence to decline to offer in the first place...

 

[JimWagner]

I did have a rather ardent feminist ask me one time, "Don't you think I can open that door for myself?"

My reply while continuing to hold the door, "Of course I do."

After that, no problems.

 

[UmmBatul]

When I think of chivalry, I instantly think of my father. He always told me that women and men may be equal, but they're not the same. As long as we all understand that, things go along swimmingly.

Most women enjoy being treated with a high degree of respect from their male counterparts. It's only normal that a man would expect to be treated with the courtesy and respect that then he deserves.

My father is a man of this century who walks around the car to open my door for me.

I've always appreciated that. It makes a woman (at least me) feel important and cherished and protected.

By way, I love the Art of Manliness' website. I haven't read the book, but I visit the website pretty regularly in the hopes of "guiding" my husband to be that kind of man.

Good topic.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I have no problem whatsoever with anyone, anywhere who wants to open a door for me or give me a seat. I've been paying my own way in the world since I was fourteen, and I don't need to "prove my independance" by acting snotty when someone offers to do me a favor. Besides, I'm old and my feet hurt.

My whole interpretation of the "I CAN DO IT FOR MYSELF YOU PIG" attitude is that it's coming from someone who, deep down, has doubts and insecurities about her own independance. Which is her problem, not yours.

 

[AmateisGal]

I have no problem whatsoever with anyone, anywhere who wants to open a door for me or give me a seat. I've been paying my own way in the world since I was fourteen, and I don't need to "prove my independance" by acting snotty when someone offers to do me a favor. Besides, I'm old and my feet hurt.

My whole interpretation of the "I CAN DO IT FOR MYSELF YOU PIG" attitude is that it's coming from someone who, deep down, has doubts and insecurities about her own independance. Which is her problem, not yours.

Well said, Lizzie! :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[Paisley]

Already plenty of threads on this...

...yet people never seem to tire of the subject.

http://thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=43055&

http://thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=46266&

http://thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=9778

If you do a search for "manners" in the thread titles, you'll come up with many more threads.

 

[Son_of_Atropos]

I have been thinking about this subject for quite some time and here are my opinions.

First, morals are dictated by society. Basically, society determines morality. It is a sliding scale and as morals are lessened or ignored then society suffers. For evidence, see the Chinese Ming, Qing, and Yuan dynasties. Again, my opinion and I may be looking at the past through rose colored glasses.

Second, these morals change over time and this change is always more liberal. Liberal in this sense meaning more lax morals. Even the ancient Greeks complained about the loose morals the youth had.

The expression of alarm over the ways of the young is certainly
nothing new. Many sources attribute a quote about the dreadful
behavior of children to Socrates. Its actual origin is in dispute, but
the dispute is an interesting one:

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

ATTRIBUTION: Attributed to SOCRATES by Plato, according to William L.
Patty and Louise S. Johnson, Personality and Adjustment, p. 277
(1953)."

​

What this means is that eventually, what was acceptable or reprehensible for one generation may not be for a different generation. In addition, more likely than not the morals will be less strict than the previous generation. Lastly, this topic has been discussed since the beginning of time and no one has found a solution.

So, where does that leave chivalry. In my opinion, it is an antiquated code reminiscent of Cervantes' Don Quixote.

I don't see the point of chivalry; there is no benefit for anyone. So why bother?

This video reflects some of my thoughts on political correctness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czZlb7LshN0

Oh, here is some more gasoline for the fire.

http://artofmanliness.com/2009/12/20/what-can-manly-men-expect-of-women/

 

[Thunderbolt]

...yet people never seem to tire of the subject.

If you do a search for "manners" in the thread titles, you'll come up with many more threads.

I think it goes beyond mere manners, it's a balance on the knife's edge of gender roles in society. Common courtisy is one thing, but ones expected behavior or role is based on what equipment one came with from the factory. It's a confusing world of double standards (for both sides). Both sides need to be true to their gender. They're like puzzle pieces that fit together. You can't expect men to be "real men" if women aren't going to play too. The same is visa versa. I feel things are sort of one sided. Feminism, or chivalry, take a pick, you can't have both.

 

[Valhson]

Interesting.

I am just going to stick with the ol' southern... "don't do anything your mother would slap you for."

In my rearing, that would include not opening doors, proper introductions and any disregard or lack general good manners.

 

[Maguire]

On the issue of morals and such, these things are not one long continuous slide into the abyss (or progressivism, however you'd like to see it), it swings from one way to another, the Greeks of the Hellenistic age would have seemed degenerated by their ancestors in the 6th century the same way the Roman Empire to Livy or the like seemed degenerated compared to its better days until the Punic Wars. But this changes too- the Roman Empire of the 3rd century had an undercurrent of religious movements (Mithraism, Christianity, Dionysic cults, Zoroastrianism) that were nothing like the stale old paganism with strong ascetic demands, eventually overriding the old ways completely. Just like on a micro level the "roaring 20s" gave way to the more conservative 1930s. Some of us may look in horror at this or that going on today, but there is always a rockbottom. Can't have a phoenix without fire and ashes, so to speak.

 

[Paisley]

...mere manners...

MERE manners?

My point was that the subject has been discussed at very great length here. I'll leave everyone else to it.

 

[Caity Lynn]

I don't think it's dead. My view on it is, act like a lady, and you shall be treated as such.

Now, I don't like to be underestimated. I *can* help move a couch. I'm a strong girl, tie my own sandals and everything. However, if there are big strong boys around, and I'm in a skirt....you'd better believe those boys are gonna have the opportunity to move the couch first. If they don't, THEN I move it.

I like being treated like a lady. If I'm with a gentleman and we're approaching a door, I'm going to expect him to open the door. If he doesn't...well...chances are I'm going to open it, walk through it, and let him get it himself. (Unless he's carrying something, then I'll hold it for him)

Random strangers opening doors though, I don't expect it, not in today's world. When it happens, I make a point to thank them.

 

[Hemingway Jones]

I merged the latest two Chivalry threads.

 

[Mojito]

Theories behind the development of a chivalric code make interesting reading...chivalry itself has not been a static set of rules of conduct. I don't think anyone here would subscribe entirely to courtly love (although we might find an appeal in, for example, medieval ideas of platonic relationships). These codified behaviours have never been universally applied...one reason I enjoy the Peter Wimsey character is his unfallible courtesy to everyone, regardless of class or gender (with some notable exceptions when he turns the sharper edge of his wit on a malefactor). But even within the context of the world of his novels, he's still something of an exception which is what makes his manners and consideration for others so notable.

I think there are core manners that are universally applicable, regardless of gender. I'll hold a door open for whomever walks behind me. I'll give up my seat to someone if they need it, whether they are older, pregnant or infirm. I am perfectly capable of carrying my scuba diving equipment to the end of a long dock and loading it on the boat and will do so...but if someone offers me a hand, male or female, I will accept it. Likewise, if I'm in a position to assist someone with heavy loads, I'll do so (I lift weights and am fairly athletic).

Recently I was in a rather distressing situation with my father after he suffered a fall. He's a big man, and always insists he requires no assistance...having grown up with the idea that it is somehow unmanly to accept physical help, particularly from a woman. He was a bit tangled up, and I had to work around the situation to preserve as much of his sense of dignity as possible...it would have been much easier had I simply been able to help lift him to his feet, but in the end found that if I got him a chair to lean on and took it slowly with a bit of a helping hand, he was able to get up with minimum assistance.

I don't require anyone to open a door for me, but I am certainly not going to react with hostility if someone does so, recognising it as a gesture meant in kindness and courtesy. If, on the other hand, I am struggling with heavy packages, I appreciate the practical help very much. I've also come to the aid of young mothers struggling with shopping and strollers and the elderly carrying heavy shopping bags. Treating others as you wish to be treated is my personal code of honour - rendering practical assistance where it is needed, in as unobtrusive a way as possible, and expecting no recognition or effusive thanks. This is how all my family was raised and how we operate - like my little brother, who if he is walking down a street late at night and sees an unaccompanied woman, will cross the street and drop back so she doesn't feel potentially uncomfortable with his presence, but who still tries to stay close enough in case she encounters trouble.