waistcoat questions

[dnjan]

I am thinking of starting to wear waistcoats (mostly for warmth!), and have a couple of questions:

Is the bottom button on a five- (or six-) button waistcoat buttoned?

And, into which pocket should the pocketwatch be placed. I am right-handed (if that makes any difference).

Thanks,

 

[Nick D]

If the bottom button is tailored in such a way that it pulls the waistcoat out of shape it should be left unbuttoned. You can tell by looking at the buttons when it's unbuttoned, the bottom button will look out of line.

 

[avedwards]

Personally I think the bottom button should never be buttoned, regardless of the cut, as my father taught me that it is British to do so. And a pocket watch can be put in any pocket, whichever feels most comfortable. I am right handed and I keep it in the right pocket (on the few occaisions I use a pocket watch). I am sure that there are also right handers who have the watch in the left pocket, so I think there is no rule on this.

 

[Slim Portly]

If the bottom button is tailored in such a way that it pulls the waistcoat out of shape it should be left unbuttoned. You can tell by looking at the buttons when it's unbuttoned, the bottom button will look out of line.

True, and I'll just add that even if the bottom button is placed so that it can be buttoned it is still a personal choice as to whether or not it should be. At various times in history and in different locations the habit has gone in and out of style, so use your judgment as to how it looks, what style you are after, and how you feel about how well you carry the look.

Pocket watches can be carried in any available pocket, whether in waistcoat, jacket, overcoat, or trousers, and can be attached with any sort of chain or fob, entirely at your discretion. I think that while perusing period photos I have seen almost every possible way of doing this. With both waistcoat button and pocket watch, unless there is a specific period look that you are attempting to replicate, experiment and use whatever style is most convenient for you while still having a look that you enjoy.

 

[scotrace]

Slim, that answer was about brilliant. Well said. Much beter than my standard reply, which is "I don't let fat, gluttonous, dead monarchs dictate what I button or don't."

 

[stephen1965]

That's interesting.. I'd say that almost all British men do not button their waistcoat's bottom button whatever the cut. It's a really strong tradition here I think but do Americans and other non Brits not have this tradition to such a strong degree? I mean what percentage of Americans do you reckon carry on this tradition? I'm seeing the tradition die out a little in the UK I think but has it always been less in the U.S? Really interested in this so if you get time...

 

[dnjan]

Thanks for the advice. So far, the only waistcoat I have feels (and looks) fine with the bottom button buttoned. So barring any cool-weather trips to England, I will probably follow that pattern.

Looking at the pocketwatch chains in some of the pictures, I was surprised to see the chain wrap around to the inside, with the T-bar sticking outside. I would have expected the opposite (T-bar inside and unseen). Comments?

 

[Slim Portly]

Looking at the pocketwatch chains in some of the pictures, I was surprised to see the chain wrap around to the inside, with the T-bar sticking outside. I would have expected the opposite (T-bar inside and unseen). Comments?

Again, there really was no right or wrong with this. T-bars were shown or not, chains had fobs or they didn't, they were fastened directly to button holes or passed through button holes to be attached to another object in a different pocket or went directly from the watch in one pocket to another object in another pocket while bypassing a button hole completely.

And then there were single chains as opposed to Double Alberts, metal chains vs. mourning (hair) chains, chains attached to sovereign holders and vesta cases, functional fobs and decorative fobs and fraternal order fobs...

 

[stephen1965]

You know, I just have to go back to the waistcoat button thing. In England or the UK, buttoning your waistcoat, I've got to say, I think is looked down on.
Of course at the end of the day it's up to one's own choice but all the elegantly dressed men here would have that bottom button undone IMO. I would even go so far as to associate it with bad taste like shiny polyester suits or gigantic ties without a dimple. A bit like the cliche of the football (soccer) player with more money than taste.

But, and this is obviously important, I suspect that this isn't really the case in the U.S..
It was, as someone pointed out, a tradition started by a Brit monarch, so I guess well - dressed aristrocrats continued the tradition here (in the UK).
I wonder if the spirit of republicanism meant that buttoning the waistcoat was a snub to the Brit monarchy at some point. Or still is? But maybe that's stretching it a bit.
Does anyone know if there are any political ramifications connected with this?

 

[Nick D]

I would even go so far as to associate it with bad taste like shiny polyester suits or gigantic ties without a dimple.

Around here that is what I usually see a waistcoat worn with (with a suit, then only one in a thousand). And it's the top button that's left unbuttoned.

 

[dschonn]

I am unaware of any great stigma attached to the fastening of the bottommost button on a waistcoat in the US. Everyone always tells you not to button the bottom button on a suit coat, though. I disagree with this wholeheartedly, because if there is a button and a corresponding buttonhole and the garment is not pulled out of shape when it is fastened, there is no reason not to fasten it aside from personal comfort. Nobody has ever offered me a satisfactory reason not to fasten a working button. As far as I can see, it's the sartorial equivalent of imposing Latin grammatical rules on speakers and writers of English. They just don't apply, however much the "experts" insist that they do.

My vests (that's American for waistcoats, in case there's any confusion) are just long enough that they bunch up a little when I'm sitting with all the buttons buttoned, so I usually undo one or two at the bottom when I sit for any length of time.

 

[Creeping Past]

I'm with the others, Stephen, but not through deference.

If you're cold, not overweight like a certain long-dead dead royal or just want to use the buttons you've paid for, button up by all means!

The fear of fear itself lies behind unwillingness to test the strength of traditions.

Now for a nice lie down.

 

[scotrace]

I wonder if the spirit of republicanism meant that buttoning the waistcoat was a snub to the Brit monarchy at some point. Or still is? But maybe that's stretching it a bit.
Does anyone know if there are any political ramifications connected with this?

One usual version of the story goes that at a large dinner, King Edward VII, of considerable girth, popped his bottom waistcoat button while eating. When he rose, other gentlemen at table spotted it, and unbuttoned their own bottom buttons in either a mark of deference to His Majesty, or to make him feel more comfortable, or just as an act of dreadful toadying.

In the USA, one is routinely advised to leave the last button open on ones waistcoat. And I have rarely seen that button closed. It is just something that has gotten ingrained as "right." I don't know of any political connotation associated. My own personal opinion is that I don't need to follow the example of the monarchy when they goof or do something inadvertent.

I think it's an odd custom, and even odder that it became so accepted. I like them all fastened, just like this fellow, a renowned smart dresser of his time.

Or this fellow, who, despite the popular notion, was rather vain.

They came before the unfortunately corpulent King.

 

[avedwards]

Maybe it's possible that waistcoats changed in cut as a result of His Majesty's open button. That could be why many modern waistcoats I have seen are more comfortable with the button undone.

 

[stephen1965]

Thanks. I had heard the story but hadn't realised it was Edward VII who was around relatively recently.
Believe me, I don't feel any need to follow the example of the monarchy either. It is an odd custom and I thank you for the information that it is also pretty much ingrained in the US as well as here.
I think I'd have a hard time buttoning it, so to speak, because my father who I looked up to as an arbiter of taste left his undone and also I suppose because the people in the UK who I see with their waistcoats buttoned I've assumed tend to be less concerned with any tradition. I know that's going to sound very snobbish but I hate to see people buttoning all of their jacket buttons too. Perhaps I need to rethink my assumptions...

 

[Orgetorix]

I've only ever found one photograph of the mature Edward VII in civilian dress that clearly showed his waistcoat:

Notice all of the buttons are done up. He is wearing a kilt below, and I don't know if that affects matters.

Moral of the story: do what you like. I go both ways, as my fancy strikes me.

 

[Max Flash]

The English "tradition" of unbuttoning the bottom button is relatively recent (20th century). I have heard it said that you can tell a true gentleman by whether he has the bottom button done up or not. Whilst this may be reflective of who was at court (or sought to emulate court style) at the time of Edward VII, it has absolutely no reflection on sartorial correctness, whether in the UK, the US or anywhere else in Europe.

At worst it is an affectation to unbutton the bottom button and at best a sartorial choice. Both work for me depending on, (a) the temperature, (b) the cut of the waistcoat, (c) the waist of the trousers (no one wants to show a flash of shirt by unbuttoning the waistcoat, so make sure you have high-waisted trousers), and (d) whether I am riding a horse to work that day(!).

I have several 3P suits and some I wear with the button done up and some not. It depends what looks best. Inevitably, some wag will make some comment if I have the button done up, and I have to give them my sartorial correctness spiel!

 

[Suitable]

Some waistcoats nowadays are cut so that the bottom button cannot be fastened without noticeable distortion and discomfort. On those, the button must be left open.

On other waistcoats, the question is one of preference. I tend to leave the bottom button open, but I have no objection to closing it.

The topmost buttons, however, should be fastened.

The foregoing applies to high-cut waistcoats, with approximately five or six buttons. Formal waistcoats, for wear with black tie or white tie, are cut much lower. All the buttons should be fastened.

 

[Not-Bogart13]

I've really become fond of the waistcoat recently, and I hope to find some that are good for the warmer temps for the summer.

Anyhow, I generally agree that there's no "right way" to button up (unless the design makes it clear), consider the length. Vests are becoming a popular item for young, trendy men, but thay tend to be shorter by design. I notice that they are worn fully buttoned. If I had the build to wear those shorter versions, I would do that. Normally, though, I leave the last unbuttoned.

As for the watch, I don't have a double chain, so I wear my watch on the left. The way it clip to the button hole, if I have to open my waistcoat it's a hassle if worn on the right. That may change when I find a better chain, though. [huh]

 

[dnjan]

As for the watch, I don't have a double chain, so I wear my watch on the left. The way it clip to the button hole, if I have to open my waistcoat it's a hassle if worn on the right. That may change when I find a better chain, though. [huh]

I was thinking of the left pocket for the exact same reason. I always feel better when somebody else confirms my logic.

I have a double chain, but I don't think I could bring myself to wear it short of a black-tie event. If I tried a double chain with a conventional waistcoat, I am afraid I would feel like the chain was wearing me. So it will be a single chain with the waistcoats I am currently acquiring.