Toppers Unite

[steur]

Oops. I see that it has been a while since I last posted a hat here even though I promised it would be soon. Here it is however. John Wright and Sons, size 56. haven't got the dimensions for the brim but the height is 13,5 cm. According to the seller 1950's. Can't find anything on John Wright.

 

[KarlCrow]

Oops. I see that it has been a while since I last posted a hat here even though I promised it would be soon. Here it is however. John Wright and Sons, size 56. haven't got the dimensions for the brim but the height is 13,5 cm. According to the seller 1950's. Can't find anything on John Wright.

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It is beautiful, I'd probably buy one but I don't think i'd wear one.

 

[steur]

It is beautiful, I'd probably buy one but I don't think i'd wear one.

Same here. I have several of them but never wear one. They're not as forgiving as soft felt hats: the fit has to be just right.

 

[steur]

This one is interesting. I bought it because it came with the original box (and it was cheap), Delion (or A Delion to be complete) top hat in the size 4 3/4 (a good 56). It's an early one because the French gave up on the quarter sizes at one point in time (as far as know well before the war). It's heavily shellaced around the brim break and there's even shellac on the sweatband; when I turned it inside out to look for labels and such it cracked (and not because it was dry) and on the sweatband picture the shellac can be seen as a dark/black rim. The original owner's great grandchildren used it for dress-up and it's not in the best state. I ironed it as best as I could to get the worst dents out and it's presentable but it could use a restoration. Delion was quite the shop in its day, having locations in Paris at both the Passage Jouffroy and Boulevard des Capucines.

 

[Ann Sadler]

I have an interest in ladies silk hats as I am a side saddle rider or rather was, I haven't sat on a horse for a few years but I am an active member of The Side Saddle Association in the uk. Our rules star that a ladies silk hat (shouldn't be referred to as a top hat) should have a crown height of between 120mm and 133mm. Here's a pic of a Lock and Co silk hat for a lady. Also one of me in a silk hat dressed in a dress rehearsal before going to Golega Horse Fair as a guest of the Portuguese side saddle association

 

[mayserwegener]

Interesting. Is there anything else other than the crown height that distinguishes a Women's Silk Hat from a Men's Silk Top Hat? I say this because there are Men's Silk Top Hats that might fall within that crown height range.

 

[mayserwegener]

This one is interesting. I bought it because it came with the original box (and it was cheap), Delion (or A Delion to be complete) top hat in the size 4 3/4 (a good 56). It's an early one because the French gave up on the quarter sizes at one point in time (as far as know well before the war). It's heavily shellaced around the brim break and there's even shellac on the sweatband; when I turned it inside out to look for labels and such it cracked (and not because it was dry) and on the sweatband picture the shellac can be seen as a dark/black rim. The original owner's great grandchildren used it for dress-up and it's not in the best state. I ironed it as best as I could to get the worst dents out and it's presentable but it could use a restoration. Delion was quite the shop in its day, having locations in Paris at both the Passage Jouffroy and Boulevard des Capucines.

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Stefan, Great find! JHS used 1/4 French Point sizes on Stiff Felts and Silk Top Hats up to WWII. I think I have some other examples from other companies but I don't believe I have come across a Soft Felt with 1/4 French Point Size.

 

[Ann Sadler]

Interesting. Is there anything else other than the crown height that distinguishes a Women's Silk Hat from a Men's Silk Top Hat? I say this because there are Men's Silk Top Hats that might fall within that crown height range.

No I don't think so. I think crown heights varied as well as some riders in Victorian photos look to have taller crowns. The best maker was Mrs White in London, I do have one of hers but it is in storage and I need to get it sometime. We only wear silk hats at and after opening meet for hunting,after 12 at larger shows or if a Royal Show you can wear earlier and anytime if royalty are present.Only worn with a hunting tie (stock a bit like a cravat, not a collar and tie) and in the uk we wear a veil with them,
Regards,
Ann

 

[mayserwegener]

Ann, Thank you for the quick reply. Is there some type of identification (model name) on these Women's Silk Hats (for example the Lock & Co. you posted)? What time period was Mrs. White of London? Thanks!

 

[Ann Sadler]

Ann, Thank you for the quick reply. Is there some type of identification (model name) on these Women's Silk Hats (for example the Lock & Co. you posted)? What time period was Mrs. White of London? Thanks!

I think Mrs White as a hatter was around in the 30s and 40s possibly up til the 1950s. An old friend of mine was taken to the shop to have her first top hat made or fitted. I'm not sure if they were a branch or related to the hatter A J White. Sorry I would have to try and look up more details.
Late he battery running out, I'll look tomorrow.
Regards,
Ann

 

[mayserwegener]

Thanks! I look forward to your update.

 

[deeoeraclea]

I have a 1912 silk plush topper from A F bodecker which I'm planning to take to local hatter petitgas (1857) for a refurbishment and probably buy a beaver stovepipe to go along with it will post pictures of my hat when I get home latter in the afternoon

https://www.facebook.com/pages/F-Petitgas-Eftf/430711750322435

 

[Ann Sadler]

Thanks! I look forward to your update.

I haven't found out very much but it seems that Mrs White was connected with A J White as they have the same address of 8 Burlington Gardens so perhaps Mrs White was the part of the business that dealt with ladies hats and caps. I have a man's A J White topper from the 50s and the address on the label is 8 Burlington Gardens. Quite often but not always any silk hat used by a lady has a piece of elastic sewn to it which you put under your bun and which helps hold it on, same with riding bowlers but not everyone used to or today bother to do that.
I assume Mrs White ceased trading when A J White did.
Regards,
Ann

 

[deeoeraclea]

here's the hat I mentioned earlier today

 

[mayserwegener]

I haven't found out very much but it seems that Mrs White was connected with A J White as they have the same address of 8 Burlington Gardens so perhaps Mrs White was the part of the business that dealt with ladies hats and caps. I have a man's A J White topper from the 50s and the address on the label is 8 Burlington Gardens. Quite often but not always any silk hat used by a lady has a piece of elastic sewn to it which you put under your bun and which helps hold it on, same with riding bowlers but not everyone used to or today bother to do that.
I assume Mrs White ceased trading when A J White did.
Regards,
Ann

Thanks! Is it possible they are just modified (elastic added) Men's Silk Top Hats or do you think they were made specifically for Women (see the Lock & Co. you posted)? Men's Silk Top Hats used by a Livré / Coachman (or similar) might have similar crown dimensions. My focus is Germany and Austria.

 

[mayserwegener]

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View attachment 95815 here's the hat I mentioned earlier today

Thanks for posting! I look forward to seeing the restoration work. Can you take a better photo of the maker logo? Do you know anything about them?

 

[Ann Sadler]

Thanks! Is it possible they are just modified (elastic added) Men's Silk Top Hats or do you think they were made specifically for Women (see the Lock & Co. you posted)? Men's Silk Top Hats used by a Livré / Coachman (or similar) might have similar crown dimensions. My focus is Germany and Austria.

Ive bought a few from Germany in the past as for one thing they tended to have larger sizes and also quite often the crown height was lower than in the uk and therefore were just right for ladies side saddle. I stopped buying and selling due to work and children and lack of time but am dipping my toe in again as I'm now retired. I just love silk hats though,something about them fascinates me and I love getting an old dirty unbrushed one and making it all shiny. I have issues with some of the side saddle ladies who will insist on using Guinness on their hats to make them shiny as I think it ruins the hat but some insist that that's the thing to do.
Regards,
Ann

 

[mayserwegener]

Yes I believe Wegener still makes Mesuline (Felt) Women's Equestrian Top Hats (what would you call them?). Do you know of Pajk of Ljubljana, Sloviania? They also made / make Mesuline (Felt) Women's Equestrian Top Hats. I visited Pajk about a month ago.

 

[Ann Sadler]

Yes I believe Wegener still makes Mesuline (Felt) Women's Equestrian Top Hats (what would you call them?). Do you know of Pajk of Ljubljana, Sloviania? They also made / make Mesuline (Felt) Women's Equestrian Top Hats. I visited Pajk about a month ago.

I don't like the felt ones and normally the crown height is too low, OK for dressage but incorrect for side saddle. People prefer the silk hats although they are more expensive they look much better, I only buy if the silk is perfect or just a tiny rub. I have Czech and Slovenian friends but haven't heard of that make

 

[deeoeraclea]

A F bodecker was founded in 1852 and closed down in 1915 and was located on fredsgaten 6 in Stockholm that's as much as I know