Toppers Unite

[mayserwegener]

Thanks for that Steve.

The listing must mean that Franz Gulder's widow (witwe) took over the business. I wouldn't think it would list him as a widower (witwer).

Interestingly enough, A.F. Bodecker's widow did the same thing in Denmark. He's a very interesting Swedish/Danish hat maker and seller, btw. Born in Sweden, learnt his trade in Denmark, Germany, and France during the democratic revolutions in Europe during the mid 1800s.

I found a very interesting pdf booklet about him. It's in Danish, so not much point in sharing on the FL.
View attachment 326362

Steve, There are many names listed this way. I am fairly certain it means the listed passed on and the business is still in the family. There are some names with an additional (Inh. (Owner) + Name) listed.

 

[Steve1857]

Thanks, Steve. Listings like that were more or less the same here at that time. Little Denmark has often looked up to its big brother in the south and copied its systems.

Steve, There are many names listed this way. I am fairly certain it means the listed passed on and the business is still in the family. There are some names with an additional (Inh. (Owner) + Name) listed.

 

[Steve1857]

Well spotted, Matt. I've attached a photo of the logo of my Lincoln & Bennett alongside the London Manufactory one. They're quite similar, I must say.
Though it has to be said that the lion and the unicorn crest was popular among various manufacturers as it symbolizes the UK. The lion being England, the unicorn Scotland.

Steve, your London hat manufacturer logo looks to me very much like it is based on the Lincoln - Bennett logo....

 

[Steve1857]

Note to self: remember to attach photos

Here they are, plus one other top hat I have with the lion and unicorn label.

Well spotted, Matt. I've attached a photo of the logo of my Lincoln & Bennett alongside the London Manufactory one. They're quite similar, I must say.
Though it has to be said that the lion and the unicorn crest was popular among various manufacturers as it symbolizes the UK. The lion being England, the unicorn Scotland.

 

[Mean Eyed Matt]

You are right, of course, Steve:
Lion and unicorn are the heraldic holders of the coat of arms of the United Kingdom
and also of the coats of arms of individual members of the royal family.

But the shape of the shield below is interesting and very similar,
but I have also seen another British brand with a similar design
that I forgot for the moment. I will search...
Maybe the shape of the shield is similar to the circle of Lock, Bates & Willoughby?

 

[Steve1857]

Matt, I didn't mean to disparage your connection to Lincoln & Bennett. That's the closest I've come to finding a link to The London Manufactury. Maybe L&B, Lock & Co, and some others, pehaps even Herbert Johnson, were behind that brand. Would be great to find out.

You are right, of course, Steve:
Lion and unicorn are the heraldic holders of the coat of arms of the United Kingdom
and also of the coats of arms of individual members of the royal family.

But the shape of the shield below is interesting and very similar,
but I have also seen another British brand with a similar design
that I forgot for the moment. I will search...
Maybe the shape of the shield is similar to the circle of Lock, Bates & Willoughby?

 

[Mean Eyed Matt]

Steve, I didn't take that disrespectfully at all - in no way.
I just wanted to clarify what I meant the post before:
The coat of arms is official and actually could not and
should not be used by everyone...

In contrast, however, there seems to be a certain uniformity
in the design language of individual other elements of the brands.

 

[mayserwegener]

I have seen the Lion and Unicorn crest used on German and Austrian / Czech hats.

 

[Mean Eyed Matt]

Thank you for these examples: How do you explain that, Steve?
I thought you once said that "English brand names" were very popular in Germany after the war.
But your examples here are pre-war!? Is the coat of arms also supposed to pretend "British quality"?
But German hat craft was high quality itself!? And at the same time the question:
Was it allowed to simply use the coat of arms? Has "the royal house" simply closed the eyes!?

 

[Steve1857]

Interesting, Steve. A slightly different lion and unicorn, but nevertheless a similar crest. As I mentioned earlier, it was quite ubiquitous, and not just in the UK.

I have seen the Lion and Unicorn crest used on German and Austrian / Czech hats.

 

[Steve1857]

Matt, I don't believe the crest was ever patented only for use by any royal household.
Plus, the French "mon dieu et mon droit" wouldn't make anyone out of the know believe this was an English logo.

Thank you for these examples: How do you explain that, Steve?
I thought you once said that "English brand names" were very popular in Germany after the war.
But your examples here are pre-war!? Is the coat of arms also supposed to pretend "British quality"?
But German hat craft was high quality itself!? And at the same time the question:
Was it allowed to simply use the coat of arms? Has "the royal house" simply closed the eyes!?

 

[Mean Eyed Matt]

I had always imagined / once heard that the coat of arms
may only be used in the same way as the "by special appointment..."
- quasi like in Germany/Austria the "Königlicher Hoflieferant" or similar.
That it was/is thus "lent". But maybe I am wrong...

 

[Steve1857]

The crest between the lion and the unicorn, more often than not, also has "honi soit qui mal y pense" written in it. Again, if one isn't familiar with British history, one would think more French than English.

 

[Steve1857]

I don't believe that is true, Matt. Then again, even if it were, folks had a different outlook on patents and copyrights back then

I had always imagined / once heard that the coat of arms
may only be used in the same way as the "by special appointment..."
- quasi like in Germany/Austria the "Königlicher Hoflieferant" or similar.
That it was/is thus "lent". But maybe I am wrong...

 

[Mean Eyed Matt]

I can well imagine that - you will be right.
But what sense does the use of this coat of arms have
- e.g. in German hats? Because it is "beautiful"?
Somehow I don't really understand the whole thing.
But maybe there is no higher sense behind it.

The crest between the lion and the unicorn, more often than not, also has "honi soit qui mal y pense" written in it. Again, if one isn't familiar with British history, one would think more French than English.

 

[Steve1857]

Matt, here's why the coat of arms were also used in German hats:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Hanover

English monarchs have been French, Dutch, and German over the past many centuries with connections to various monarchies etc. in many European states.

Thank you for these examples: How do you explain that, Steve?
I thought you once said that "English brand names" were very popular in Germany after the war.
But your examples here are pre-war!? Is the coat of arms also supposed to pretend "British quality"?
But German hat craft was high quality itself!? And at the same time the question:
Was it allowed to simply use the coat of arms? Has "the royal house" simply closed the eyes!?

 

[Steve1857]

It all makes sense in a historical perspective, but the spaghetti weavings of the various connections between the ruling monarchies of the day can be mind bogglingly complicated to fathom.

QUOTE="Mean Eyed Matt, post: 2803218, member: 37568"]I can well imagine that - you will be right.
But what sense does the use of this coat of arms have
- e.g. in German hats? Because it is "beautiful"?
Somehow I don't really understand the whole thing.
But maybe there is no higher sense behind it. [/QUOTE]

 

[mayserwegener]

Interesting, Steve. A slightly different lion and unicorn, but nevertheless a similar crest. As I mentioned earlier, it was quite ubiquitous, and not just in the UK.

Steve, I believe I have other examples. If you look through these plates you will find some.

https://germanaustrianhats.invision...t-plates-found-near-štramberk-czech-republic/

https://germanaustrianhats.invision...s-found-near-štramberk-czech-republic-part-2/

https://germanaustrianhats.invision...s-found-near-štramberk-czech-republic-part-3/

 

[mayserwegener]

Thank you for these examples: How do you explain that, Steve?
I thought you once said that "English brand names" were very popular in Germany after the war.
But your examples here are pre-war!? Is the coat of arms also supposed to pretend "British quality"?
But German hat craft was high quality itself!? And at the same time the question:
Was it allowed to simply use the coat of arms? Has "the royal house" simply closed the eyes!?

Matt, Could be marketing in both cases. If you look through the print plate links I posted above you will see other examples. It's also common to see English words. The P. & C. Habig Wien "Grand Prix Paris" that I recently found has "Best, Extra Extra, Patent Ventilator" on the crest.

 

[Mean Eyed Matt]

Steve & Steve:
I see - My desire for simple, direct and "logical" explanation just does not always match.
I thank you for all the additions and for stimulating of my confused thoughts.