To shellac or not to shellac...?

[jdouglasj]

My Western hatmaker makes a lot of cowboy hats. He makes fedoras too, and they look great, but they are stiffer than what I see at my hat maker here in Chicago.

When I first went to my Chicago hat maker, I noted that his hats were not nearly as soft as what I'm used to seeing in old movies. Those hats looked much more personal, and less like they were stamped out of a machine. But overall his hats are fairly soft.

My western hat maker can make a hat that looks the way I want it to look, but it will still be stiff even if the pinch isn't symmetrical and even if it has the look of a softer hat.

I could say "hey, don't put much shellac in my hat" but what would be the consequences of that? If less shellac means I just have to fiddle with it a bit to get it back into shape, then that's fine. But if less shellac means this hat maker won't be able to achieve the hat I want him to make, then that is a problem.

I guess my question comes down to this: Should I tell my Western hat maker to use very little shellac, or should I just let him make hats the way he's used to making hats?

 

[Rmccamey]

You will likely receive a lot of great responses to your question. Let me give you one response from a very limited perspective and also one that will be generalized and that is not meant to apply to every hat maker or evety situation.

In Texas and many other areas of the US, hat makers have to make a living and the biggest market is for western weight cowboy hats. Over time, these hatters get very good at making cowboy hats and loose the knack/desire/skills/motivation/finesse to work on lightweight fedoras using dress weight felt. So, when asked to make a fedora, many of those hatters fall into their cowboy hat paradigm of how a hat should be and that is, in a word, stiff. I'm sure someone near you can build you a great hat to your specifications but many of us here throw business to small scale hatters who focus primarily on dress weight fedoras and homburgs (Hufvud, Northwest hats, VS, Gannon and many, many others). This is part of the reason many of us converse here on TFL. If you want a hat like is in the old movies, buying a vintage hat (1900 - 1950s) is a great option.

(Ps, it is not always about the shellac. The preparation of the felt - the pouncing - can make a huge difference in the stiffness, softness, and feel of the felt.)

 

[belfastboy]

My Western hatmaker makes a lot of cowboy hats. He makes fedoras too, and they look great, but they are stiffer than what I see at my hat maker here in Chicago.

When I first went to my Chicago hat maker, I noted that his hats were not nearly as soft as what I'm used to seeing in old movies. Those hats looked much more personal, and less like they were stamped out of a machine. But overall his hats are fairly soft.

My western hat maker can make a hat that looks the way I want it to look, but it will still be stiff even if the pinch isn't symmetrical and even if it has the look of a softer hat.

I could say "hey, don't put much shellac in my hat" but what would be the consequences of that? If less shellac means I just have to fiddle with it a bit to get it back into shape, then that's fine. But if less shellac means this hat maker won't be able to achieve the hat I want him to make, then that is a problem.

I guess my question comes down to this: Should I tell my Western hat maker to use very little shellac, or should I just let him make hats the way he's used to making hats?

Question: Are you living close to your hat maker so you can drop in and have a look at the hat in process? When I am making a hat I do use shellac sometimes, especially if I am making a ladies hat out of a lighter millinery felt. But my practice is to use a very soft touch with the shellac....applying a light/thin coat, dry, and inspect. If I don't have the stiffness needed I will repeat. Shellac does not need to be a 'one and done' step in the process. But once the shellac is in the hat it is near impossible to remove. So my suggestion is to request he use a soft touch and you can pop in and see/touch the felt and instruct his next steps. If he is not willing to do that then I suggest you need to find a new custom hat maker that will work to your needs.....god knows you are probably paying a goodly amount for this hat.

 

[johnnycanuck]

If your hatter uses western felt bodies for his fedoras they may already come with a certain amount of shellac in them already. If western hats are 90% of his business that may be how he makes hats and sticks with what he knows. If no one has asked for a softer felt he may have not considered making a hat softer. In fact he may have had enough requests/complaints for stiff hats, that’s all he does.

Simply put, have a conversation with the guy. “I prefer my dress hats to be soft but malleable. Can you do that for me?” Also remember the shellac will wear off over time so the more you wear it the softer it will get. Sun, snow and rain.
Hope that helped some
Johnny

 

[jlee562]

There is no one-size-fits-all answer to this question as others have commented on. It really depends on the choice of felt and the proportions of the hat. To give a specific example, I have a Black Sheep Hatworks hat made out of a lighterweight heathered felt body. I requested a 3" brim, this necessitated a little more stiffener than might otherwise have been used, to make sure that such a wide brim was able to keep the integrity of the flange over the long haul.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

First, make sure the hatter is using a dress-weight felt hat body. Many western hatters make fedoras using western weight felt. Most hat bodies are felted with a stiffener already added (I’m not sure if it’s the traditional shellac). These raw felts determine what is possible with a finished hat. If your hatter is starting with a western weight felt then you are never going to get a soft, less stiff, classic fedora. Even if the hatter starts with a dress-weight felt it takes skill to get it down to a lightweight hat approximating the qualities of a vintage hat. Even with the skills, tools, and time, modern felt is made differently from vintage felt and your hatter might not be able to get what you want using it. For me, only the floppiest of felts need any additional shellac.

There are a lot of threads and a lot of posts where members, current and past, have lamented about the quality of modern felt. As stated previously, your best option might be to find a vintage hat.

 

[jdouglasj]

Thanks for all the advice. FYI, this is the rough model I told him to use:

This hat, in my eyes, is about halfway between a fedora and a western hat. You can't wear a western hat in the East or in Chicago (unless you're Mexican) but I'd wear a hat like this anywhere. I wanted a hat that I could wear pretty much every day. Something I could wear fishing or shooting or walking the dog. If I like the hat when it arrives, I'll be shopping for a coat to go with it.

Baron Hats used to make a version of this hat, but they don't make it anymore. But I didn't think Baron's version of the hat was really what I wanted anyway. My hat maker is going to use a dress weight felt. I spent about 2-3 hours at my hat maker with three employees (I was the only customer that day) trying to pick the perfect hat color for me, the perfect crown height for me, and every other detail. In the end the color, the crown height, the ribbon, and the brim height were different from this hat but this look was the goal. We just had to get it to look good on me. After going through all that I came to two conclusions: (1) Buying a hat like this off the rack would not have worked even if someone was making this style, and (2) I could not have gotten what I wanted without going out there. I hope it works out, but we'll see.

Alas, Belfastboy, I am not close to this hat maker. I just got bored one Friday night and decided to fly from Chicago to Phoenix and then back to Chicago all the next day, just to get this hat. I took a deep dive in all the particulars of a second hat as well. I only put the money down for one hat, but if I really like it I'll buy the second one too.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Thanks for all the advice. FYI, this is the rough model I told him to use:
View attachment 299588

This hat, in my eyes, is about halfway between a fedora and a western hat. You can't wear a western hat in the East or in Chicago (unless you're Mexican) but I'd wear a hat like this anywhere. I wanted a hat that I could wear pretty much every day. Something I could wear fishing or shooting or walking the dog. If I like the hat when it arrives, I'll be shopping for a coat to go with it.

Baron Hats used to make a version of this hat, but they don't make it anymore. But I didn't think Baron's version of the hat was really what I wanted anyway. My hat maker is going to use a dress weight felt. I spent about 2-3 hours at my hat maker with three employees (I was the only customer that day) trying to pick the perfect hat color for me, the perfect crown height for me, and every other detail. In the end the color, the crown height, the ribbon, and the brim height were different from this hat but this look was the goal. We just had to get it to look good on me. After going through all that I came to two conclusions: (1) Buying a hat like this off the rack would not have worked even if someone was making this style, and (2) I could not have gotten what I wanted without going out there. I hope it works out, but we'll see.

Alas, Belfastboy, I am not close to this hat maker. I just got bored one Friday night and decided to fly from Chicago to Phoenix and then back to Chicago all the next day, just to get this hat. I took a deep dive in all the particulars of a second hat as well. I only put the money down for one hat, but if I really like it I'll buy the second one too.

I’m glad you got what you were looking for.

To my eye, the hat in the photo you provided looks all fedora and not at all western. It looks like a fairly typical wide brim fedora worn with the brim up. I’m looking forward to seeing your completed hat.

 

[jlee562]

Ahh, so that style of hat likely would have been stiffened entirely different than a modern hat. There is a thread here documenting an early 20th century Stetson Catalog, so just slightly after the time period of the film.

e.g.

In the description on the right side here, it describes two Stockman style hats as having a "stiff brim, soft crown."

Here are some styles not vastly different than the Plainview hat. 1112 in the middle there almost looks like a dead ringer, the Plainview hat has a deeper flange.

 

[jdouglasj]

As I recall, he was planning to make the brim stiffer than the crown. What sets this hat apart from a fedora is that there is no dent on top and it has the look of a campaign hat with the pinch, but with only two indents. I have never seen a hat like this. The hatter showed me an old catalogue with the hat which, as I recall, he said was a popular style around 1906...or was it later, IDK. Attached are some side views.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

As I recall, he was planning to make the brim stiffer than the crown. What sets this hat apart from a fedora is that there is no dent on top and it has the look of a campaign hat with the pinch, but with only two indents. I have never seen a hat like this. The hatter showed me an old catalogue with the hat which, as I recall, he said was a popular style around 1906...or was it later, IDK. Here is a side view:

The crease / bash / “dent on top” is not a defining characteristic of a fedora. You can wear a fedora open crown with or without side dents and it’s still a fedora. There are common ways to crease a fedora, but lots of variations too. Back in the day, most fedoras were sold open crown and the owner could shape them however they wanted; including creasing the crown or leaving it open. You can give it a campaign hat style of crease, such as a Montana Peak, it’s still a fedora. I still don’t see much western DNA in the photos, but that’s just me. All that matters in the end is that you got the hat you were after.

 

[jlee562]

Hat taxonomy is always tricky. In particular because we are looking backwards with a modern frame of reference. "Fedora" seems to have been a slightly more specific type of soft felt hat during this specific time period. As long lost member RLK notes, in a late 19th century context, the fedora was specifically "a fashionable urban formalized hat."

Continuing:

No one at the time would have called any hat a Fedora. This illustrates the point that there wasn't really anything definitively new about the hat body...

[...]

However, during the last two decades of the 19th century the name was applied only to center-creased curving brim soft felt hats of moderate brim width.

In the aforementioned Stetson Catalog the hats we most associate as "fedoras" are called Tourist styles. And indeed, in Knox's introduction of the fedora hat, it was presented as "a new and perfect soft felt hat." JMHO "Stockman hat" fit the styling and proportions...and the Daniel Plainview oil baron character.

Since you mentioned 1906 and I live in San Francisco, I spent a few minutes on OpenSFhistory.org looking for similar/related creases...

This gent in the foreground just left of center seems to have a similar vibe going on, a little more consciously creased.

Our friend on the right side of the frame here has his a little more nonchalant like perhaps he grabs the crown.

 

[Rmccamey]

This Lounge is all about getting what you want, so congrats on the new commission. You might also explore other hat makers we discuss here on TFL as I see this style of hat easily within the capabilities of them all.

Here is a vintage Shuttie Bros. open crown hat that could easily be creased to look like your pattern.

Thanks for all the advice. FYI, this is the rough model I told him to use:
View attachment 299588

This hat, in my eyes, is about halfway between a fedora and a western hat. You can't wear a western hat in the East or in Chicago (unless you're Mexican) but I'd wear a hat like this anywhere. I wanted a hat that I could wear pretty much every day. Something I could wear fishing or shooting or walking the dog. If I like the hat when it arrives, I'll be shopping for a coat to go with it.

Baron Hats used to make a version of this hat, but they don't make it anymore. But I didn't think Baron's version of the hat was really what I wanted anyway. My hat maker is going to use a dress weight felt. I spent about 2-3 hours at my hat maker with three employees (I was the only customer that day) trying to pick the perfect hat color for me, the perfect crown height for me, and every other detail. In the end the color, the crown height, the ribbon, and the brim height were different from this hat but this look was the goal. We just had to get it to look good on me. After going through all that I came to two conclusions: (1) Buying a hat like this off the rack would not have worked even if someone was making this style, and (2) I could not have gotten what I wanted without going out there. I hope it works out, but we'll see.

Alas, Belfastboy, I am not close to this hat maker. I just got bored one Friday night and decided to fly from Chicago to Phoenix and then back to Chicago all the next day, just to get this hat. I took a deep dive in all the particulars of a second hat as well. I only put the money down for one hat, but if I really like it I'll buy the second one too.

 

[jdouglasj]

The crease / bash / “dent on top” is not a defining characteristic of a fedora. You can wear a fedora open crown with or without side dents and it’s still a fedora. There are common ways to crease a fedora, but lots of variations too. Back in the day, most fedoras were sold open crown and the owner could shape them however they wanted; including creasing the crown or leaving it open. You can give it a campaign hat style of crease, such as a Montana Peak, it’s still a fedora. I still don’t see much western DNA in the photos, but that’s just me. All that matters in the end is that you got the hat you were after.

Taxonomy aside, I guess I'd say you could where the Plainview hat while riding a horse on your Montana ranch and it would look good, but if you wore what I think of as the traditional fedora that I might wear with a suit in Chicago, it might look a wee-bit strange on the Montana ranch. So I suppose that's where I see some western DNA here.

 

[belfastboy]

Taxonomy aside, I guess I'd say you could where the Plainview hat while riding a horse on your Montana ranch and it would look good, but if you wore what I think of as the traditional fedora that I might wear with a suit in Chicago, it might look a wee-bit strange on the Montana ranch. So I suppose that's where I see some western DNA here.

With my limited knowledge of vintage I could be off base here....but vintage fedoras (were they even called that back in the day?) had at least a soft crown and from watching old movies it would seem as though the bashes were less formalized and often the bash would be whatever turned out when the wearer grabbed it and plunked on top of his head. And in the early west (pre Stetson) wasn't the Bowler/Derby about the most popular style?

 

[Rmccamey]

That is my understanding. In the old, old west, derbies were very common.

in the early west (pre Stetson) wasn't the Bowler/Derby about the most popular style?

 

[jdouglasj]

First, make sure the hatter is using a dress-weight felt hat body. Many western hatters make fedoras using western weight felt. Most hat bodies are felted with a stiffener already added (I’m not sure if it’s the traditional shellac). These raw felts determine what is possible with a finished hat. If your hatter is starting with a western weight felt then you are never going to get a soft, less stiff, classic fedora. Even if the hatter starts with a dress-weight felt it takes skill to get it down to a lightweight hat approximating the qualities of a vintage hat. Even with the skills, tools, and time, modern felt is made differently from vintage felt and your hatter might not be able to get what you want using it. For me, only the floppiest of felts need any additional shellac.

There are a lot of threads and a lot of posts where members, current and past, have lamented about the quality of modern felt. As stated previously, your best option might be to find a vintage hat.

I was watching this video of how the felt is made, and I remembered your post. The video gives me the impression that the felt is made the same way as it ever was, and it left me wondering what's changed?

 

[belfastboy]

I was watching this video of how the felt is made, and I remembered your post. The video gives me the impression that the felt is made the same way as it ever was, and it left me wondering what's changed?

Just off the top: cotton, silk, denim all comes in many types & grades why wouldn't felt be the same? I have felts from, Czech Republic, USA, Portugal, Ukraine, and South America....all are very different; different colour saturation, very different degrees of stiffness, and from that very different hand feel..

 

[jdouglasj]

Ah, maybe this is the explanation on modern felt: Americans and Canadians aren't killing as many beavers and Russian beavers aren't as good:

 

[deadlyhandsome]

I was watching this video of how the felt is made, and I remembered your post. The video gives me the impression that the felt is made the same way as it ever was, and it left me wondering what's changed?

There have been major changes in the felting process over the decades. Not the least of the changes was the move away from Mercury.

Winchester is the largest (only?)US maker of fur felt. When asked if they could produce felt similar to better vintage hats they said that they could no longer make that kind of felt. As to the technical processes and chemicals used today you’ll have to ask someone else. I’m sure the general process is more or less the same, but there have been major changes over the years.