Thoughts about Japanese brands

[Doctor Damage]

Exactly! We are talking about quality that far exceeds the point of diminishing returns. A $350 par of jeans is better quality than a $70 pair of jeans, but not five times better; and a $300 flannel is better quality than a $60 flannel, but not five times better. If one is focused on a linear quality to dollar, bang for your buck ratio, one will never patronize the highest quality garments because they invariably are far beyond the point of diminishing returns. Of course, this is all subjective and product dependent. The cost/quality spectrum is quite broad, and where we ultimately end up depends on a myriad of factors.

Exactly. All clothing manufacturers decide how much money to invest in materials, manufacturing and labor for their particular garments, which in turn dictates their product cost and retail pricing. Most companies could produce higher quality garments if they chose to do so, but they instead select a lower quality/price point to maximize efficiency and profits. Can't blame them. As an investor, I would rather own H&M or Zara, as opposed to The Real McCoys or Freewheelers.

These are excellent points and worth learning by heart.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Agreed, and I don't cite quality factors in relationship to durability. I have way, way too many clothes and, as a result, nothing I own gets tested or taxed from a durability standpoint. Why, then, do I focus on quality? Because I derive personal enjoyment from wearing quality garments, even if I will never need, or realize the objective benefits of, the additional quality, and even if a lessor quality garment would be more than adequate. I enjoy high quality clothing solely because it is high quality, and not because the additional quality translates to greater durability. I enjoy the superlative craftsmanship, engineering, and execution -- not to mention the wonderful fabrics. John Q. Public does not notice, nor care, but that's not the point. I notice and I care, and that's all that matters. A $60 flannel would serve my purposes -- e.g., keep me warm and be sufficiently durable -- but I would know that I am wearing a lessor quality garment. Therefore, I pay more for quality because I derive personal enjoyment from the better quality garments, and that alone justifies the delta in price.



Exactly!



Exactly! We are talking about quality that far exceeds the point of diminishing returns. A $350 par of jeans is better quality than a $70 pair of jeans, but not five times better; and a $300 flannel is better quality than a $60 flannel, but not five times better. If one is focused on a linear quality to dollar, bang for your buck ratio, one will never patronize the highest quality garments because they invariably are far beyond the point of diminishing returns.

Of course, this is all subjective and product dependent. The cost/quality spectrum is quite broad, and where we ultimately end up depends on a myriad of factors.

Interesting. I personally don't engage with the idea of quality for its own sake unless it delivers durability too. But I imagine your perspective is fairly widely held.

I originally came here for the vintage finds (I like the style and recycling) but these days it's more about vintage inspired items which cost so much the fun is gone (to my taste).

I really don't care about denim or any Japanese repro wear. But I used to collect Japanese ceramics and religious art. Them I do like.

 

[LaymanX]

For me, it's about the details. The tiny little things, like the peach engraved hidden rivets in a pair of Momotaro denim, or the loopwheeled material on a Buzz Rickson sweatshirt, or the airplane tire grade rubber used in a Yoshida Porter backpack.

The Japanese craftsmen cherish the concept of 'kaizen' or continuous improvement and consider it a privilege to be at the peak of their respective craft. In almost every niche segment of goods, the Japanese always rank at the top or near the top in my experience, whether it be fountain pens, chocolates, cars, denim, leather, mountaineering gear, running shoes.

They're not perfect, but for me, Made in Japan is rarely a bad sign.

 

[Justhandguns]

As usual, I only join the discussion late after some very 'exciting' exchanges. I think 'Made in Japan' is usually a mark for quality in general. This comes from their culture as most manufacturers or makers take pride in their products. The craftsmanship (職人) culture is still deep in their roots, although decline on their economy and globalisation in the past 20yrs is slowly stripping it away.

In the old days, a lot of Japanese living overseas tend to use only supplies produced in Japan whenever is possible. That is the kind of patriotism that they had. Sadly, from what I have seen, the newer generation of Japanese is starting to compromise with the rest of the world.

Personally, I would not pay silly money simply for things that are made in Japan jackets as we do have good alternatives. But we should feel grateful these days when we can get our hands on to these fine products from Japan quite easily. Back in the 90s', Japanese tended to keep the top of the range stuffs for them own consumption.

P.S. Japanese products can also be faulty as of any other 1st world countries though. I have seen a few of Japanese made jackets with uneven pockets, collars, leather patterns so on and so forth. But the chance is certainly lower.

 

[Edward]

I own very few Japanese products, largely due to limited size range availability (I'm right on the borderline with the top end available sizes in Buzz, for example; I've yet to see a pair of Buzz Chinos otr that are less than ten inches too small round the waist for me), but also the, frankly, crazy money they go for here in the UK. Somebody clearly must be buying the stuff or the likes of the RMC stored in Covent Garden would disappear (and heaven knows I often have to be dragged away from their window before I start licking the glass), but it's just much more than I'm prepared to spend. One day, when the pound isn't in the toilet, I'll make it to japan and consider buying some stuff there at a more sensible rate (assuming I can find my size).

As to quality, back in the 50s, Japanese product as seen in the West was cheap and nasty, and sneered at. All change by the mid eighties (as I recall, there's a gag in that in Back to the Future). Then Japanese labour costs became too much, and production for the cheap, mass-market stuff shifted to Korea, then China, then Vietnam, now parts of India, soon Africa.... Japan was left with the more expensive stuff. As somebody said above, Japan, like China, like the USA, like the UK, like most places, really, has the skill to make great stuff provided the orderer wants to spend what it will cost. Japan also had the advantage of some very canny people who spotted the Americana market in Japan long before it hit the west in the way it has (I think it's still bigger over there in some respects - like you can sell a B2 in Japan, but there's very little interest in the West in gear not used during the popularly-fetishised WW2, or at least in one of the movies which feed that fetish), and were prepared to 'do it right'.

Mind you, if anyone thinks 'Made in Japan' has become a mystical label out of relation with all reality for many (just like 'Made in USA' or Made in UK' for many others), just wait until those companies all move on to production elsewhere and then you'll see it! I always had to laugh when guys who hated Japanese-made Fenders when they were being imported in bulk to the West eulogised them when the Mexican plant took over, and how those will be eulogised by their haters in turn when they move somewhere else....

Even the Japanese can put out the odd clunker, of course, but hey....

McCoy's WWII chinos are excellent value for money. I've had two pairs, both bought in from Japan, and even after import tax etc, they're still well within a reasonable price range. and are fantastic quality - they're heavy enough to be worn into autumn and winter.

No way they'll ever do my waist size even when I get down to target, but otherwise, they'd be great. Be interesting to compare the cost of buying direct with the UK retailer prices!

I really, really want this...

Nice. I have my eye on the River Junction version.

And a waste of leather, nothing more than conspicuous consumption stuff.

EDIT: This post was in response to the leather animals, lol

I don't see much use for them (unless they're sufficiently weighted to act as doorstops? Or perhaps they used them in-store as a novelty way to demo their hides and people asked to buy them?), but I doubt they're using much in the way of panels that could realistically be used in a jacket. Quite likely they're a spin-off product to use up offcuts, like ELC's A2 wallets.

Interesting. I personally don't engage with the idea of quality for its own sake unless it delivers durability too. But I imagine your perspective is fairly widely held.

That's another layer entirely, finding an objective notion of quality... I tend to agree, though, that in most clothing cases I am looking or durability and longevity as two major components of what I would regard as quality.

I originally came here for the vintage finds (I like the style and recycling) but these days it's more about vintage inspired items which cost so much the fun is gone (to my taste).

I think a lot of long-timers round here have gone through that transition which affects all retro / vintage scenes - the gradual move of original stuff from cheap / widely available to pricey, to just not available at an affordable price in most sizes (which is where anything much pre-1940 now is, for sure - and anything pre-1959ish is fast going that way too). We're now at the point where anyone who wants to dress 30s/40s/50s will, for the most part, be dependent on reproduction. That's inevitably harder and more expensive for men. Me, I'll gladly give up any limited thrill in wearing "the real thing" for readily available, accurate, quality repop which makes it realistic to dress fully and daily the way I want, however the drawback of being a niche market is indeed that it is always going to be more expensive.

I really don't care about denim or any Japanese repro wear. But I used to collect Japanese ceramics and religious art. Them I do like.

That could be an interesting thread in the vintage pieces / collections area...

 

[dannyk]

@Edward I would tend to agree it’s leftover cuts from some other larger leather products they are making. Whether it’s jackets or wallets or what have you. My uncle makes moccasins and if he uses scraps or pieces of hide that aren’t thick enough for the boots to make stuffed bears, pouches, bracelets and lighter covers. He never buys hide specifically for those things. He just always has enough leftover or when you’re buying hide in bulk there maybe a section thinner than the rest more suitable to that. And instead of junking it he uses it to try and still make a profit and not waste anything. So are they worth it, probably not. Would o buy one also probably not. But it makes complete sense if you want maximum profit and zero waste.

 

[Edward]

@Edward I would tend to agree it’s leftover cuts from some other larger leather products they are making. Whether it’s jackets or wallets or what have you. My uncle makes moccasins and if he uses scraps or pieces of hide that aren’t thick enough for the boots to make stuffed bears, pouches, bracelets and lighter covers. He never buys hide specifically for those things. He just always has enough leftover or when you’re buying hide in bulk there maybe a section thinner than the rest more suitable to that. And instead of junking it he uses it to try and still make a profit and not waste anything. So are they worth it, probably not. Would o buy one also probably not. But it makes complete sense if you want maximum profit and zero waste.

Yip. No material costs, and presumably somebody buys 'em or they wouldn't be offered on sale...

The other example was a run of B2 caps ELC did years ago, made out of offcuts from Irvin fleece. End result: a B2 cap that may not be historically accurate in colour, but beautifully made to the correct pattern, and looked much better paired with an Irvin than the 'real thing'. Because the materials were effectively free and they only had labour in 'em they sold at a fairly deep discount too. Wish I'd snapped one up!

 

[Blackadder]

And a waste of leather, nothing more than conspicuous consumption stuff.

EDIT: This post was in response to the leather animals, lol

I am not sure about it being wasteful. They have lots of bits and pieces left from the jackets and they made a patchwork tote bag with some of the larger pieces but the tiny odd pieces? I wouldn't buy it though.

 

[Blackadder]

I own very few Japanese products, largely due to limited size range availability (I'm right on the borderline with the top end available sizes in Buzz, for example; I've yet to see a pair of Buzz Chinos otr that are less than ten inches too small round the waist for me), but also the, frankly, crazy money they go for here in the UK. Somebody clearly must be buying the stuff or the likes of the RMC stored in Covent Garden would disappear (and heaven knows I often have to be dragged away from their window before I start licking the glass), but it's just much more than I'm prepared to spend. One day, when the pound isn't in the toilet, I'll make it to japan and consider buying some stuff there at a more sensible rate (assuming I can find my size).

As to quality, back in the 50s, Japanese product as seen in the West was cheap and nasty, and sneered at. All change by the mid eighties (as I recall, there's a gag in that in Back to the Future). Then Japanese labour costs became too much, and production for the cheap, mass-market stuff shifted to Korea, then China, then Vietnam, now parts of India, soon Africa.... Japan was left with the more expensive stuff. As somebody said above, Japan, like China, like the USA, like the UK, like most places, really, has the skill to make great stuff provided the orderer wants to spend what it will cost. Japan also had the advantage of some very canny people who spotted the Americana market in Japan long before it hit the west in the way it has (I think it's still bigger over there in some respects - like you can sell a B2 in Japan, but there's very little interest in the West in gear not used during the popularly-fetishised WW2, or at least in one of the movies which feed that fetish), and were prepared to 'do it right'.

Mind you, if anyone thinks 'Made in Japan' has become a mystical label out of relation with all reality for many (just like 'Made in USA' or Made in UK' for many others), just wait until those companies all move on to production elsewhere and then you'll see it! I always had to laugh when guys who hated Japanese-made Fenders when they were being imported in bulk to the West eulogised them when the Mexican plant took over, and how those will be eulogised by their haters in turn when they move somewhere else....

Even the Japanese can put out the odd clunker, of course, but hey....

No way they'll ever do my waist size even when I get down to target, but otherwise, they'd be great. Be interesting to compare the cost of buying direct with the UK retailer prices!



Nice. I have my eye on the River Junction version.



I don't see much use for them (unless they're sufficiently weighted to act as doorstops? Or perhaps they used them in-store as a novelty way to demo their hides and people asked to buy them?), but I doubt they're using much in the way of panels that could realistically be used in a jacket. Quite likely they're a spin-off product to use up offcuts, like ELC's A2 wallets.



That's another layer entirely, finding an objective notion of quality... I tend to agree, though, that in most clothing cases I am looking or durability and longevity as two major components of what I would regard as quality.



I think a lot of long-timers round here have gone through that transition which affects all retro / vintage scenes - the gradual move of original stuff from cheap / widely available to pricey, to just not available at an affordable price in most sizes (which is where anything much pre-1940 now is, for sure - and anything pre-1959ish is fast going that way too). We're now at the point where anyone who wants to dress 30s/40s/50s will, for the most part, be dependent on reproduction. That's inevitably harder and more expensive for men. Me, I'll gladly give up any limited thrill in wearing "the real thing" for readily available, accurate, quality repop which makes it realistic to dress fully and daily the way I want, however the drawback of being a niche market is indeed that it is always going to be more expensive.



That could be an interesting thread in the vintage pieces / collections area...

Finally. All those sweatshop, poor working condition and poor quality knock-offs issues. It is a rather common developing phase and a developing countries cannot easily skip it simply because some people cannot bear the sight of it. The West grew out of it, then Japan did it, then Korea did it and now China and India are going through it. Well if some countries are years behind, criticisms and sanctions are not going to force them to grow out of it any quicker.
Coming back to the Japanese brand, there may be something that is overlooked. The Japanese repro manufacturers did pay top dollars all over the world to collect original samples but that is not just it, they also pay top dollars to scoop up all the old machinery, old looms, old sewing machines etc. These old looms and machines are outdated. Jeans cloth made by old loom have lots of loose thread. Buttonholes made with old sewing machines tend to let loose. So yes, in a sense you are paying top dollars to recreate a piece of garments that is outdated not only in terms of design but also in terms of construction. Comes down to whether one want the old look or one want the old thing.

 

[Superfluous]

I was in an eyeglass store yesterday. Interestingly, several of the "top" brands are made in Japan, including brands associated with other countries (e.g., Porsche Design). Made in Japan definitely carries a certain cachet within the US.

 

[Edward]

Finally. All those sweatshop, poor working condition and poor quality knock-offs issues. It is a rather common developing phase and a developing countries cannot easily skip it simply because some people cannot bear the sight of it. The West grew out of it, then Japan did it, then Korea did it and now China and India are going through it. Well if some countries are years behind, criticisms and sanctions are not going to force them to grow out of it any quicker.

I don't know, I think as fair-trade and ethical production gains ground as a fashion trend in and of itself (hopefully one to stick around), the cycle is getting faster. Of course, the more highly skilled workforce necessary, the faster treatment seems to improve... It is a tangible reason why I'm wary of some cheaper items, though.

Coming back to the Japanese brand, there may be something that is overlooked. The Japanese repro manufacturers did pay top dollars all over the world to collect original samples but that is not just it, they also pay top dollars to scoop up all the old machinery, old looms, old sewing machines etc. These old looms and machines are outdated. Jeans cloth made by old loom have lots of loose thread. Buttonholes made with old sewing machines tend to let loose. So yes, in a sense you are paying top dollars to recreate a piece of garments that is outdated not only in terms of design but also in terms of construction. Comes down to whether one want the old look or one want the old thing.

Fair point too. Authenticity has its limits. Personally, as long as it looks right (all other things being equal), that's good enough for me. If it doesn't change the appearance, I'm happy to allow some compromises in technique. Again, within reason.

 

[Winthorpe]

I was in an eyeglass store yesterday. Interestingly, several of the "top" brands are made in Japan, including brands associated with other countries (e.g., Porsche Design). Made in Japan definitely carries a certain cachet within the US.

I believe the reason might be that Japan is one the world's top producers of acetate and renowned for its high quality finishing (quite often the frames are hand polished).

My optical glasses are by a Danish producer that has their acetate frames made in Japan. Masunaga is one example of a high-quality Japanese manufacturer that produces their acetate in-house (as well as everything else).

 

[dannyk]

Theoretically isn’t this also a lot to do with population size? By which I mean the US is just so huge physically and population wise that we just have so many companies that by pure numbers we’re going to have more low-end makers and more mall brands and more everything. While say Vanson, Schott, Lost Worlds are well known US jacket makers we also have still have lots of mom and pop, or check out Etsy and eBay for handemade and small scale leather makers. Japan has a culture and a mindset and the tools to make great stuff. Nothing to take that away it’s all true. But for top tier makers where nearly everything they make is A grade and what separates and A from an A+ is a stitch or two, or one bad design out of 20 good ones... the numbers just aren’t there. We know crappy Japanese brands do exist. It’s just being not from Japan the majority of what we will hear about is the good ones. They make it out because they are good enough to leave the shores of Japan. The crappy ones we barley hear about. The US with our really global economy and our massive spending on adversitising you just hear about our crap makers more and based on population naturally have way more of them.

 

[Edward]

Theoretically isn’t this also a lot to do with population size? By which I mean the US is just so huge physically and population wise that we just have so many companies that by pure numbers we’re going to have more low-end makers and more mall brands and more everything. While say Vanson, Schott, Lost Worlds are well known US jacket makers we also have still have lots of mom and pop, or check out Etsy and eBay for handemade and small scale leather makers. Japan has a culture and a mindset and the tools to make great stuff. Nothing to take that away it’s all true. But for top tier makers where nearly everything they make is A grade and what separates and A from an A+ is a stitch or two, or one bad design out of 20 good ones... the numbers just aren’t there. We know crappy Japanese brands do exist. It’s just being not from Japan the majority of what we will hear about is the good ones. They make it out because they are good enough to leave the shores of Japan. The crappy ones we barley hear about. The US with our really global economy and our massive spending on adversitising you just hear about our crap makers more and based on population naturally have way more of them.

It may well depend on the market. With guitars, much of the very best, most innovative Japanese product never leaves Japan (partly because while the electric guitar market in the West has finally seen beyond the 'Made in USA' tag, there's very little demand for anything new as such - rather, the market demands more of the same). I suspect it may be the same with a lot of repro brands, if only because the prices are so crazy-inflated by the time they hit the UK, there's not many as will buy. Then I suspect some of that is also down to supply and demand - there's only really the Japanese making much effort to repro nylon USAF jackets to any degree, for example (though, granted, the likes of Bronson are emerging).

 

[Justhandguns]

Theoretically isn’t this also a lot to do with population size?

In a way, it is true, but in general, or statistically speaking, the chance of you getting a better product from Japan is much higher than in the US or most other parts of the world.

But you are absolutely right, not all Japanese products are of the same quality, and somehow it is going slightly downhill. Some of these manufacturers are struggling because of the economy and others actually suffer from 'modern' managements. Good example is electronic giant Toshiba which has been taken apart or bought up by foreign corporations, air-con/refrigeration now owned by Carrier, electronic dept owned by Hisense, PC sold to Sharp and the RAM business sold some sort of consortium. Somehow I have a feeling that the introduction of western style management (more like American style) in the early 90s' actually contribute a lot to the decline. Early generations were more into craftsmanship and R&D, where as modern western management are just looking at cash flows. What they did was slowly closing down or selling off 'unprofitable' departments and subsidiaries. Then that came the final nail of the coffin, the uprising of China and their ability to provide cheap labours and productions.

Fair point too. Authenticity has its limits. Personally, as long as it looks right (all other things being equal), that's good enough for me. If it doesn't change the appearance, I'm happy to allow some compromises in technique. Again, within reason.

This is a very interesting point. Although not many of us here are vintage denim fanatics, and I have no problem buying traditional shuttle loom selvedge denim. But the dilemma is, while these fabrics are rarer and harder to produce, they still shrink and twist after washing, that is why you see the twisting of seams found on the traditional jeans and jackets. A modern pair of jeans have rectified most of these shortcomings, but we seem to have gone back just purely for sentimental reasons? I still find it odd. You would not want an unmatched front panel and uneven pockets while you get your Real McCoy painted A-2 right?

 

[Edward]

This is a very interesting point. Although not many of us here are vintage denim fanatics, and I have no problem buying traditional shuttle loom selvedge denim. But the dilemma is, while these fabrics are rarer and harder to produce, they still shrink and twist after washing, that is why you see the twisting of seams found on the traditional jeans and jackets. A modern pair of jeans have rectified most of these shortcomings, but we seem to have gone back just purely for sentimental reasons? I still find it odd. You would not want an unmatched front panel and uneven pockets while you get your Real McCoy painted A-2 right?

All comes down to what we ant from repro, doesn't it? Expectations sometimes reveal the whole 'vintage' thing to be rather a fantasy. Unsurprising, really: nobody wants to 'reenact' day to day the dreadful, grinding poverty of many in the thirties, or the greater or lesser degree of social and/or legal prejudice suffered by non-WASPs.... Equally, when we spend crazy money on reproduction work clothes or A2s, there's an expectation of a level of quality and attention to detail that sometimes conflicts with genuine accuracy.... I think it's healthy to accept that we're often looking through rose-tinted (period accurate) spectacles with this sort of thing. It' important to be realistic about what we want and what compromises we're prepared to make for the ske of accuracy vs durability vs practicality, vs "quality" vs..... Realistically, there is compromise involved. Me, I'm still waiting for a heavy, environmentally-friendly fabric that looks and feels exactly like flannel or worsted wool but is mothproof and twice as durable.....

 

[handymike]

I've handled a lot of Japanese brands, and ultimately I'm not willing to spend the extra cash.
I really like some of the RMC jackets, and Lofgren boots, and I drool over a lot of things I see on IG...but that's where it ends. In the US (as other places) we are fortunate to have other great makers that fill my wants just fine. I'm not the type who needs the "absolute elite" or "most expensive". It just doesn't jive with my life. My sewing instructor recently told me that there is enough material already in the world to clothe the rest of humanity for the rest of time if recycled. I'm much more into the idea of used, or "sourced" from vintage goods at the moment. Kapital in Japan is doing some of this...but so is Atelier & Repairs here in LA. I really only look to them for inspiration though, as I bought a sewing machine and I'm currently snatching up vintage fabrics from eBay and thrift stores.
Prime example: I recently visited a shop selling great looking Japanese made goods. I tried on a pair of OrSlow military inspired pants ($250, and the cut was too slim for me). Across the street in a Goodwill I found a perfect fitting pair of original Vietnam era OD 107 pants for $14 (once I got a discount for stains that came out).

 

[Blackadder]

I believe the reason might be that Japan is one the world's top producers of acetate and renowned for its high quality finishing (quite often the frames are hand polished).

My optical glasses are by a Danish producer that has their acetate frames made in Japan. Masunaga is one example of a high-quality Japanese manufacturer that produces their acetate in-house (as well as everything else).

Actually eyeglass frame is another example of the Japanese adhering to the old method/tech. While acetate is safer and lighter, a lot of the Japanese brands still prefer to use celluloid to make frames because they have to be hand made with care. That is often associated with their pride and workmanship. Could be just show off though. Those are for domestic markets because celluloid frames are phased out or outright banned in some countries.

 

[regius]

I’m very curious about the Japanese consumers psychology & the economics when it comes to luxury niche goods like vintage repro. YEN16500 is a pretty hefty price for both Americans & the Japanese domestic shoppers. If you just buy one or two, it’s justifiable, but once you get in the habit of collecting/flipping, some serious budgeting would be required. As a culture, the Japanese is polar opposite to the Americans when it comes to waste management (read: lean management, lean culture, lack of natural resource etc). So I wonder if the Japanese jacket lovers also buy as many as we do. If not, I wonder how Fine Creek & others survive (just by selling to volume buyers like us?)


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[Blackadder]

Ah, Gov't will tell you to recycle and create less waste but I doubt any Gov't will tell you not to buy things. On one hand you have rather strict regulations on waste management on the other hand you have those 100 yen store everywhere.
I guess that is the reason why there are so many 2nd hand stores in Japan. Go on Yahoo Auction Japan and you will see tons of 2nd hand clothing and many have not even been worn. You can keep on buying when it is so easy to pass the old things onto 2nd hand stores.
Shops like Fine Creek, Freewheelers produce in very small scale. Their dealers mostly order one piece per size per season on top of the pre-order by customers.