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This would really limit the number of makers pursued. Might be be a good time to go full wool.
A bit late to the party, but yes, when I was considering a Himel jacket, I was partly consdering it because it was advertised as bespoke. Otherwise I would have never even considered paying such a high price. So yes, claiming "bespoke" is fraud, I agree with @Aloysius .
So glad I did not fall for that scam. Marketing is exagerating the qualities of your products not lying about them. Lying is fraud and scam.
Same as when Himel was claiming that shinki was tougher than chrome tanned leather... another lie or pure ignorance. Not sure which is worse.
And I did get bespoke jackets from several makers such as JL, Thedi and Electric Leather Studio. So they exist at a cheaper price than Himel, without the other issues such as inexistant QC.
I do not think Himel has detractors, most of the criticism has been valid, the brand was unfortunately put on a pedestal before, and then people realised that it was far form that perceived level. The forum has the tendancy to go for the flavour of the month, but luckily it is seems much quicker at rectifying excessive praise nowadays.
So glad I did not fall for that scam. Marketing is exagerating the qualities of your products not lying about them. Lying is fraud and scam.
Same as when Himel was claiming that shinki was tougher than chrome tanned leather... another lie or pure ignorance. Not sure which is worse.
And I did get bespoke jackets from several makers such as JL, Thedi and Electric Leather Studio. So they exist at a cheaper price than Himel, without the other issues such as inexistant QC.
I do not think Himel has detractors, most of the criticism has been valid, the brand was unfortunately put on a pedestal before, and then people realised that it was far form that perceived level. The forum has the tendancy to go for the flavour of the month, but luckily it is seems much quicker at rectifying excessive praise nowadays.
That’s obviously incorrect and Aero should not have cleared that submission from their copywriter. (Although having been one and an editor myself, sometimes things fall through the cracks.)
Considering that Aero is frequently at pains to note in responses to questions here and elsewhere that their jackets are built on stock sizes with adjustments and that they don’t have a whole marketing campaign based around “bespoke”, I am willing to give benefit of the doubt.
Honestly I think there is some confusion here.
Bespoke is an old English work adopted by tailors to indicate that some cloth was ‘bespoken’ to a customer. The Savile row tailors evolved this use to describe the process by which they make suits - bespoke tailoring.
They would argue that only suits made on Savile row (or within a small area of the street) can be described as such and even other tailors cannot use the term.
The British advertising standards authority disagree.
Bespoke is also in common usage to mean custom made now and that is unavoidable. I have used it to describe a custom in-house workflow for individual patient investigations in my molecular biology lab… am I a fraud?
If himel was making suits, I would agree with your point but the process of leather jacket production is completely different anyway, so I think bespoke is just a synonym for custom here. He wishes to invoke the feeling of high end custom service… it’s just marketing BS.
Bespoke tailoring does not only describe the individual’s patterning but the complete construction process - floating canvas, inlays, hand stitching etc… So doesn’t make sense for leather anyway.
Bespoke is an old English work adopted by tailors to indicate that some cloth was ‘bespoken’ to a customer. The Savile row tailors evolved this use to describe the process by which they make suits - bespoke tailoring.
They would argue that only suits made on Savile row (or within a small area of the street) can be described as such and even other tailors cannot use the term.
The British advertising standards authority disagree.
Bespoke is also in common usage to mean custom made now and that is unavoidable. I have used it to describe a custom in-house workflow for individual patient investigations in my molecular biology lab… am I a fraud?
If himel was making suits, I would agree with your point but the process of leather jacket production is completely different anyway, so I think bespoke is just a synonym for custom here. He wishes to invoke the feeling of high end custom service… it’s just marketing BS.
Bespoke tailoring does not only describe the individual’s patterning but the complete construction process - floating canvas, inlays, hand stitching etc… So doesn’t make sense for leather anyway.
Marc mndt
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I used to work in the high end fashion retail industry as a sales associate. I know the difference between MTM and bespoke in the context of tailoring and so did most of my customers. But I'm starting to think that outside of the suitmaking context bespoke simply means "made to individual order" as the dictionary tells us.
What's wrong here is that Himel claims that he is the only one in the business offering it (MTM), which is nonsense.
What's wrong here is that Himel claims that he is the only one in the business offering it (MTM), which is nonsense.
Edit : typo
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Of course it is nonsense. That’s marketing. If you don’t like a company’s marketing practices, don’t buy their goods. It’s easy. Accusing them of fraud is a different thing.
Himel would argue that his process is different (he can make a claim to back it up), and it will be different to other companies because he is a unique person. So, with himel (as with any company), you are getting a unique service - ie: he is the only one doing what he does.
It’s very clear to me as an impartial observer of the makers here that the forcefully made opinions in this thread are based on biases held by those members.
…I just looked at his website. The language used are not different to other makers to me. Best leather, (some of the) finest craftsmen etc… I don’t see a claim of being ‘the only one to offer mtm’. But I did not look that hard.
Same as with aero, a simple google search revealed the use of bespoke (2x at least) on their website.
A storm in a teacup.
Same as with aero, a simple google search revealed the use of bespoke (2x at least) on their website.
A storm in a teacup.
Wait, with Himel it’s „FRAUD!!“, with Aero the exact same term is the fault of their copywriter…??
Are you for real?
As somebody who shouts „troll“ at everybody who‘s opinion you dislike, you should perhaps invest a minimum of effort in the credibility of your assumptions.
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Himel Bros. - The Ross Mk. 1 Leather Jacket Classic D-pocket motorcycle/aviator style jacket.
All of this^. When I tried the Avro? and shawl collared jacket on, I was shocked at the mediocre leather, relatively sloppy stitch work (which I am not that concerned about usually) and totally bizarre pattern(s).
It was a rare opportunity to actually try these jackets on, which was exciting, and my only notion coming into it was that the jackets looked great in pics and were very expensive. I left thoroughly unimpressed. So it matters not if Himel jackets are bespoke, MTM or sewn by hand with a single needle forged from the blade of the last samurai….the end result simply did not live up to the pics I’d seen, the price point, or the collective buzz floating around the lounge. Just wasn’t there. Not for me anyway.
So coming back all the way full circle….while the custom jackets may be “on another level”, this stock offering seems to suffer from the same set of problems that the Mildblend stock jackets suffered from.
jeo
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Now this is much more reasonable and although debatable, I'm willing to agree, it's wrong. But fraud, no. Man that's heavy, that's almost implying criminality.
I used to work as a graphic designer, and while I switched careers in 2016, I've freelanced for many different companies and was at times astonished at the asks I'd get when producing marketing collateral for some of these people. I'd say: "So you're basically lying?" and they'd reply: "No, we're bending the truth". They’d make sure they can’t get sued and fire away.
OK. Bending the truth, exaggerating, lying.
As the top 3 Google results showed, the term is not 100% defined. I didn't fully know what bespoke meant until I was years into this hobby. When it's that close, I consider it bending the truth and definitely don’t consider it fraud. But I'm not surprised by this thread and others, the Himel hating brigade rides strong.
When it comes to marketing, we're all being lied to. Yes, I'll acknowledge that we don't really have to deal with that a whole lot in the small little leather jacket bubble we're all in, but whether it's corporations/companies, small or large or any other institution that is all about money or power or both, for the most part, you're being lied to and it's on us to sift through the BS.
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As I said earlier, when I was considering a Himel, I was expecting a pattern to be made for me.
When I was ordering an Aero, I was expecting a pattern being tweaked.
See the problem?
And full disclosure, I own neither Himel and Aero for different reasons.
Taking this into account, it is unlikely my fault for thinking one is MTM and the other is "Bespoke" ie a custom pattern, is it?
When I was ordering an Aero, I was expecting a pattern being tweaked.
See the problem?
And full disclosure, I own neither Himel and Aero for different reasons.
Taking this into account, it is unlikely my fault for thinking one is MTM and the other is "Bespoke" ie a custom pattern, is it?
If you make an incorrect assumption based on the word and the marketing, then at some point before handing over money, I presume your mistake was corrected.
Many people misinterpret or make incorrect assumptions based on adverts, marketing etc. It just shows their naivety and ignorance. The same as when aero etc state that theirs is the best, toughest, most accurate repro etc.
I think you owe it to yourself to make sure what you are buying is what you think it is.
Comparing to aero is difficult to do on this forum because you probably had a wealth of anecdotal evidence and many more peoples experience to base your decision on compared to himel.
So, no sorry I don’t see the problem.
Many people misinterpret or make incorrect assumptions based on adverts, marketing etc. It just shows their naivety and ignorance. The same as when aero etc state that theirs is the best, toughest, most accurate repro etc.
I think you owe it to yourself to make sure what you are buying is what you think it is.
Comparing to aero is difficult to do on this forum because you probably had a wealth of anecdotal evidence and many more peoples experience to base your decision on compared to himel.
So, no sorry I don’t see the problem.
No, it was not corrected, I did not order for other reasons. I only found out about the fake bespoke much later.
Yes, many people are naive, I would like to believe I am not. As stated earlier, the fact that I was misled by Himel but not Aero is relevant, is it not?
So far, I got what I ordered from the makers I have dealt with - I think that shows that I do my due diligence?
Not really, I did not handle more Aeros than Himel. I organised two London meetups with forum members and this is where I got to handle the most jackets and get first hand feedback.
To be perfectly clear, I do not favour Aero over Himel or the other way around.
The overwhelmingly most discussed brand on this forum is aero - so if you misunderstood what they offer, I would be extremely surprised. Especially going back to the days when I first joined here.
The fact that you pulled out for other reasons doesn’t meant your misconception would not have been corrected before ordering.
So yeah, sorry. I’m not convinced of the fraud accusations.
The fact that you pulled out for other reasons doesn’t meant your misconception would not have been corrected before ordering.
So yeah, sorry. I’m not convinced of the fraud accusations.
I agree, it would be very surprising if I were to misunderstand what Aero offers, they are very clear in tthis aspect of their communication. Himel is misleading.
Who knows if it would have been corrected or not?
But the fact remains that I would have still engaged due to their misleding communication.
Fair enough, I do not know if it is even possible to convince you in any case...
And there are dozens upon dozens of threads here describing the process for aero of course. Himel is far less well described here. You left that out.
Exactly my point
No, this is my point again. It is a weak accusation that in my opinion as an observer does not stand up to scrutiny.
I don't like it from Aero one bit, but Aero does not have a full marketing campaign with ads that say YOU DESERVE BESPOKE, breathless posts from the owners about their unique "bespoke" offering, etc. Context matters.
As @red devil points out, Aero is pretty adamant about making it clear they don't offer bespoke, which makes the bad language use on the new website jarring because it's at odds with their own language elsewhere.
That context makes it easier to give benefit of the doubt. But I still don't like it and it needs to be removed.
I don't "shout troll at everyone whose opinion I dislike."
I called "troll" in cases like the previously-banned guy who came back here and started posting racist slurs against all of us (and in that case, my reward for telling him follow the rules was the mods clicking 'ban' on my name rather than the message I was replying to, by mistake) or the guy who came into another thread with (apparently) questions, which I kept answering in detail, and then he'd flip each one into a new attack, etc. Even then I wasn't the one who initially determined he's a troll; I was continuing to reply to him with long answers until someone pointed out what he was doing.
You make it sound like we have a history of fighting but I have no such impression of you.
Anyway, I'm out of this thread. It was meant to be a lighthearted one about an ultimately decent jacket design that was sabotaged by the weirdest measurements I have ever seen. Quickly transformed into a Himel war. I should have taken @Tom71's suggestion to rename it with the Parker joke; might have maintained the desired tone better. (I tried actually, but couldn't figure out how to do it even though I've changed titles before.)
