The general decline in standards today

[STEVIEBOY1]

I have just returned from a small group tour around Sussex and Kent, in South East England, visiting the various preserved railways, one line we went on was the Kent & East Sussex, which was good but the staff were angry as the night before one of their stations had been vandalised by the local yobs/school kids who amongst other midless acts, had stolen or damaged some of the old fashioned lamps, which will cost the railway quite alot to get replaced. There is not much chance of catching the blokes that did this and even if they do, there won't be much of a penalty inflicted on them.

Talking about this later on a discussion came up about the general decline in standards and examples shown to children these days compared to 30-40 years ago. The opinion was that these days both parents have to work so leaving kids unsupervised and allowed generally to roam around on their own sometimes unchecked.

In schools too the teachers seem to have to spend far more time doing reports, performance figures, league tables etc and less time teaching the children, also when most of the group were at school the teachers were allowed to give unruly kids lines or dententions etc, (As I remember to my cost!). Now days there does not seem to be any way to keep order. Some of my group were saying that perhaps a return to some of the old ways would not be a bad thing.

We did sound like we should of been on the TV Programme, Grumpy Old Men, especially after the beers had been flowing for a while.

 

[Land-O-LakesGal]

Speaking as a teacher, administration has changed for drastically in the last 10 year. If we send students out that are disrupting the learning of other we are seen as bad teachers. Let me tell you folks if you think tenure and seniority are protects teachers from being dismissed from their jobs you are very mistaken they let go about 2 tenured teachers a year in my school.

 

[scotrace]

Teacher needs more coffee...

 

[scottyrocks]

Stevie, you are very right in your assessments.

I teach in a very urban neighborhood, and the kids who need the most discipline, from almost the moment they walk into school, have no fear. It all came to a head for me, so to speak, when a first grader head-butted her teacher. The teacher is out, and the kid is walking around the school with an ipod and earplugs, bopping and grinding like she's out at a night club. A first grader!

It has come to the point that there is virtually nothing anyone can do to discipline children. I can't tell you how many times I've had meetings with the same kids' parents for the same inappropriate behaviors, and the parent 'sternly' lectures the child, and the next day the cycle starts all over again. Often the child looks right a teacher and smiles while doing the very well known inappropriate behaviors, as if to say, f**k you, man, I'm gonna whatever I want and there ain't a thing you can do about it!' And basically, that's what it's come down to. And basically, if you're screwing around and creating havoc, you can't learn nearly as well as if you actually have your head into what you're doing instead of having a 'good time.'

So when you hear on the radio or on TV or in the papers that teachers are not doing their jobs, think about the fact that if a child digs his/her heels in and doesn't want to do 'the right thing' for whatever reason, there is basically not a thing to be done about it. And this policy doesn't come from the teachers, or even school administration. This hands-off approach comes right from the top, and it's all based on the often talked about here relaxing of societal standards. Today, anything goes.

Positive reinforcement works well when it does work, as it does for the large numbers of children who actually have a clue because their parents had one or two to give them. But there are growing numbers of children who were borderline behavior problems who are being sucked into the lowest common denominator way of thinking because they see there's really nothing anyone can do about it.

Years ago, we had what I have been calling a 'healthy fear.' We didn't walk around cowering all the time, but we knew that there would be consequences for our actions, and I can think of maybe one kid in my elementary school who was even close in weird behavior to what I see as a healthy third of the population in my school today.

I can't tell you how many times, for example, I've had meetings with the parents of an unruly child, and the parent's response is, 'Yeah, he's like that at home, too, and I don't know what to do about it!' I just mentally roll my eyes in my head because I cannot tell people how to raise their children. That's not my job, and people can take offense if you even question their tactics, especially when it comes to their children. But they don't know what to do about it? Oh, puh-leeeease!

The 'old ways' are necessary. We can see the results of not using them right now. But we won't see a return to them as long as everyone continues to blame everyone else for the problems. You can't correct something you can't acknowledge.

 

[LizzieMaine]

When I was in the eighth grade, I saw a kid make an obscene gesture to a teacher who was yelling at him for fooling around in class. The teacher, upon being flipped off, picked up the kid and threw him down a flight of stairs toward the principal's office. Nobody ever fooled around in that class again.

Today that teacher would probably be doing jail time. But then, they promoted him to assistant principal.

 

[Twit]

We did sound like we should of been on the TV Programme, Grumpy Old Men, especially after the beers had been flowing for a while.

Grumpy Old Men is bad for you... I think we can all sound like that at some point!

I'm not actually so sure that standards have slipped, they have udoubtedly changed as society has changed, but I'm not certain they have slipped. I think if we were looking forty years ago, we'd be saying the same things by comparison with the previous forty years. Things have changed, but crime rates are broadly speaking the same, reporting is diffierent and the ability to detect is different, but there are just the same numbers of scallies out there doing what they do. I remember my Dad saying he got a roasting from his dad for breaking every pane of glass in their next door neighbours greenhouse! Today, we'd be ranting, and if he was alive he'd be ranting, but when he told the story he laughed! This must have taken place in the late 50s/early 60s. We just look for things more, and in the UK we have plenty of papers willing to confirm what we think we know.

There are things that a really positive, we can go anywhere pretty much at any time, we can talk to anyone, pretty much anywhere in the world, dead easily. We are living longer, we can cure things we couldn't even 10-20 years ago. Society is much wider, multicultural and I think more tolerant, which is a good thing - blimey 40 years ago we had still had segregation in some US states, never mind the racial nightmares in Australia and S Africa. I think if you take a positive view life is pretty brilliant now, and then you can see how there are people living normal decent lives. I rode round the world on a motorbike a few years back, it was the best thing ever as is absolutely confirmed that the world is a diverse and good place, people were friendly everywhere, even places we like to think that they won't be, and actually the world is pretty small and preoccupied by exactly the same things!

So, no I don't think standards actually have slipped, bad things and people have always been about and always will be, I think that today we just look for it more and with instant media we are able to find it!

I've got no idea about teaching mind you!! Health.. yes, that is way more bureaucratic, but its also much much better than it was 40 years ago!

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Stevie, you are very right in your assessments.

I teach in a very urban neighborhood, and the kids who need the most discipline, from almost the moment they walk into school, have no fear. It all came to a head for me, so to speak, when a first grader head-butted her teacher. The teacher is out, and the kid is walking around the school with an ipod and earplugs, bopping and grinding like she's out at a night club. A first grader!

It has come to the point that there is virtually nothing anyone can do to discipline children. I can't tell you how many times I've had meetings with the same kids' parents for the same inappropriate behaviors, and the parent 'sternly' lectures the child, and the next day the cycle starts all over again. Often the child looks right a teacher and smiles while doing the very well known inappropriate behaviors, as if to say, f**k you, man, I'm gonna whatever I want and there ain't a thing you can do about it!' And basically, that's what it's come down to. And basically, if you're screwing around and creating havoc, you can't learn nearly as well as if you actually have your head into what you're doing instead of having a 'good time.'

So when you hear on the radio or on TV or in the papers that teachers are not doing their jobs, think about the fact that if a child digs his/her heels in and doesn't want to do 'the right thing' for whatever reason, there is basically not a thing to be done about it. And this policy doesn't come from the teachers, or even school administration. This hands-off approach comes right from the top, and it's all based on the often talked about here relaxing of societal standards. Today, anything goes.

Positive reinforcement works well when it does work, as it does for the large numbers of children who actually have a clue because their parents had one or two to give them. But there are growing numbers of children who were borderline behavior problems who are being sucked into the lowest common denominator way of thinking because they see there's really nothing anyone can do about it.

Years ago, we had what I have been calling a 'healthy fear.' We didn't walk around cowering all the time, but we knew that there would be consequences for our actions, and I can think of maybe one kid in my elementary school who was even close in weird behavior to what I see as a healthy third of the population in my school today.

I can't tell you how many times, for example, I've had meetings with the parents of an unruly child, and the parent's response is, 'Yeah, he's like that at home, too, and I don't know what to do about it!' I just mentally roll my eyes in my head because I cannot tell people how to raise their children. That's not my job, and people can take offense if you even question their tactics, especially when it comes to their children. But they don't know what to do about it? Oh, puh-leeeease!

The 'old ways' are necessary. We can see the results of not using them right now. But we won't see a return to them as long as everyone continues to blame everyone else for the problems. You can't correct something you can't acknowledge.

Good post..and I agree. The excuse of.."I don't know what to do about it" reflects on practically everyone. Otherwise..others must put up with these incorrigible kids because their parents "fail" to instill values..and a sense of respect at an early age. From my perspective..an increasing number of parents haven't the courage or perhaps even the willingness to realize the benefits not only for the child but society as well. A lack of courage that also seems to have become an ideology at the highest level to appease this newer sense of confusion. Sadly it has become incorporated into the system. Those who want..and even enjoy learning must deal with the now more common disruption. Even the disorderly may really want to learn too...but have been ruled by few enforcable rules and passive parents that have allowed them to get away with being their own leaders. I can certainly see teachers losing heart within this scenario. 'Hands tied' would be very discouraging....

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Stevie, you are very right in your assessments.

I teach in a very urban neighborhood, and the kids who need the most discipline, from almost the moment they walk into school, have no fear. It all came to a head for me, so to speak, when a first grader head-butted her teacher. The teacher is out, and the kid is walking around the school with an ipod and earplugs, bopping and grinding like she's out at a night club. A first grader!

It has come to the point that there is virtually nothing anyone can do to discipline children. I can't tell you how many times I've had meetings with the same kids' parents for the same inappropriate behaviors, and the parent 'sternly' lectures the child, and the next day the cycle starts all over again. Often the child looks right a teacher and smiles while doing the very well known inappropriate behaviors, as if to say, f**k you, man, I'm gonna whatever I want and there ain't a thing you can do about it!' And basically, that's what it's come down to. And basically, if you're screwing around and creating havoc, you can't learn nearly as well as if you actually have your head into what you're doing instead of having a 'good time.'

So when you hear on the radio or on TV or in the papers that teachers are not doing their jobs, think about the fact that if a child digs his/her heels in and doesn't want to do 'the right thing' for whatever reason, there is basically not a thing to be done about it. And this policy doesn't come from the teachers, or even school administration. This hands-off approach comes right from the top, and it's all based on the often talked about here relaxing of societal standards. Today, anything goes.

Positive reinforcement works well when it does work, as it does for the large numbers of children who actually have a clue because their parents had one or two to give them. But there are growing numbers of children who were borderline behavior problems who are being sucked into the lowest common denominator way of thinking because they see there's really nothing anyone can do about it.

Years ago, we had what I have been calling a 'healthy fear.' We didn't walk around cowering all the time, but we knew that there would be consequences for our actions, and I can think of maybe one kid in my elementary school who was even close in weird behavior to what I see as a healthy third of the population in my school today.

I can't tell you how many times, for example, I've had meetings with the parents of an unruly child, and the parent's response is, 'Yeah, he's like that at home, too, and I don't know what to do about it!' I just mentally roll my eyes in my head because I cannot tell people how to raise their children. That's not my job, and people can take offense if you even question their tactics, especially when it comes to their children. But they don't know what to do about it? Oh, puh-leeeease!

The 'old ways' are necessary. We can see the results of not using them right now. But we won't see a return to them as long as everyone continues to blame everyone else for the problems. You can't correct something you can't acknowledge.

Yes I agree with your's and the other members comments here, there are infact alot of good kids, but the minority spoils it for the majority. My mother who is very elderly has often been pleasantly surprised by acts of kindness shown towards her by teenagers.

As you say here, the old ways did have advantages in some ways. It's not something I am proud off but I did get caught smoking at school, the standard punishment for that was getting the cane, I can tell you it was painful, mind you I don't smoke now, so maybe it worked. The also used that method of discipline for things like bullying, fighting, general bad conduct etc. It was accepted as part of school life, if you broke the rules you knew the likely consiquences. In fact the lessons with stricter teachers were in some ways better as there were no distractions from other kids messing about, you knew how far you could go. I did not bear any grudges towards the master concerned.

 

[avedwards]

I'm not actually so sure that standards have slipped, they have udoubtedly changed as society has changed, but I'm not certain they have slipped. I think if we were looking forty years ago, we'd be saying the same things by comparison with the previous forty years. Things have changed, but crime rates are broadly speaking the same, reporting is diffierent and the ability to detect is different, but there are just the same numbers of scallies out there doing what they do. I remember my Dad saying he got a roasting from his dad for breaking every pane of glass in their next door neighbours greenhouse! Today, we'd be ranting, and if he was alive he'd be ranting, but when he told the story he laughed! This must have taken place in the late 50s/early 60s. We just look for things more, and in the UK we have plenty of papers willing to confirm what we think we know.

I have to disagree with your statement on crime rates. In the 1960s there was an average of 300 murders a year in the UK, whilst it is currently around 600 (still down from a decade ago when it was over a thousand).

Otherwise, Much as I like 1950s clothing and culture I'm quite happy to live in the 21st century. I am glad that hitting children is no longer allowed as a punishment in schools as I maintain the firm opinion that no matter how much misbehaving it prevents it is simply a barbaric punishment. Especially since many teachers themselves often act inappropriately (I've had a biology teacher shout at me simply because I quite politely suggested an alternative viewpoint to what he was teaching).

It would, however, be nice if parents could teach their children common curtiousy as so many children simply lack this. For example not shouting insults at strangers, not running in front of moving cars as a joke, not vandalising bus shelters etc, all of which my parents taught me but so many parents no longer seem to. It comes as no surprise though as where I live some adults are just as bad as the teenagers.

 

[angeljenny]

It would, however, be nice if parents could teach their children common curtiousy as so many children simply lack this. For example not shouting insults at strangers, not running in front of moving cars as a joke, not vandalising bus shelters etc, all of which my parents taught me but so many parents no longer seem to. It comes as no surprise though as where I live some adults are just as bad as the teenagers.

I was not taught those things - it wasn't needed! It just wasn't an acceptable way to act. It is a worry that some children don't have enough of a sense of right and wrong and actually need to be taught not to insult others or vandalise things - it is just basic respect for others and their property.

 

[djd]

The problem for teachers is that the parents are not doing their job before the kids ever get to school. There are kids in the street where I live who have been left to run around without adult supervision from the time they could walk. By the time they go to school they are already monsters. Four and five year olds shouting F@@k off at each other. I was discussing this with a senior policeman the other day and he agreed that you can more or less spot those who will be involved in crime later in life by the time they reach 11. Most of this is down to their upbringing and the way their parents behave. One scummy generation creates the next.

As for crime rates being the same... Well we and the police just let far more stuff slide these days.

Another aspect is we're all so busy encouraging our kids and reinforcing them now that they're totally unprepared for the reality of life. If you're lazy and useless then you're going to get sacked- not patted in the head and told how great you are

 

[scottyrocks]

You should hear the way some adults take to, and around their, and other kids, around my school. It leaves no wonder as to what the kids find normal and acceptable.

We also have young people with the attitude that they can walk right out into the street at the slowest pace possible, regardless of traffic. I guess when people feel powerless they attempt to show they have some control any way they can, even at their own unnecessary peril. 99 out of 100 times there will be no collision, bit as I tell my kids, if there is a collision, who do you think wins, the 40 mph-moving 3000. lb steel and plastic car, or the 100 lb. human body?

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

The problem for teachers is that the parents are not doing their job before the kids ever get to school. There are kids in the street where I live who have been left to run around without adult supervision from the time they could walk. By the time they go to school they are already monsters. Four and five year olds shouting F@@k off at each other. I was discussing this with a senior policeman the other day and he agreed that you can more or less spot those who will be involved in crime later in life by the time they reach 11. Most of this is down to their upbringing and the way their parents behave. One scummy generation creates the next.

As for crime rates being the same... Well we and the police just let far more stuff slide these days.

Another aspect is we're all so busy encouraging our kids and reinforcing them now that they're totally unprepared for the reality of life. If you're lazy and useless then you're going to get sacked- not patted in the head and told how great you are

Yes I agree with what you say here.

 

[Undertow]

Okay, so here's the question: Where is the weakest link(s)? At what point do we see the actual breakdown?

If we blame it on parents, what should parents do? Be strict? How strict? At what point is strict too strict? What about teachers? At what point do we believe teachers are too strict? Is it society? What parts of society? What can we change, or where should we start?

I agree about the "old ways". I think physical punishment can be effective in some cases. But I see alot of wheels spinning and little headway. I think we should discuss a hypothetical solution, down to the hairs on a gnat's behind. Just a thought.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think the weakest link is *modern culture* -- specifically, the generic anti-authority attitude that most people have nowadays, and which has come to dominate contemporary culture since the sixties. This isn't a rebellion against any particular authority, conducted for any kind of legitimate cause -- rather it's simply the sense that "You're Not The Boss Of Me" that just about everyone seems to have now. It's the *principle* of authority that people nowadays object to, not even any specific exercise of it -- they don't like the idea that anyone, anywhere, for any reason, should tell them what to do. Teachers, parents, cops, bosses, doesn't matter who. They aren't the boss of them.

This is a society that's never outgrown thinking of the world the way a seven year old thinks of it, and now we reap the results. Yeah anarchy man. All Power to --- um, nobody, or somethin.

If I was the type to display bumper stickers, mine would say "Question the Questioners." Because that's where it has to start -- otherwise you're just shouting into the whirlwind.

 

[Atticus Finch]

I have to disagree with your statement on crime rates. In the 1960s there was an average of 300 murders a year in the UK, whilst it is currently around 600 (still down from a decade ago when it was over a thousand).

You have to be a bit careful when you use raw numbers as apposed to numbers stated as a rate. Perhaps a better measure would be the number of murders per 1000 of population. In other words, if the raw number of murders in the UK was 300 per year in the 1960s, and the UK's population has doubled since then, 600 murders per year now could be expected.

Here in the states, the rate of violent crime has generally declined in the last decade. I say generally, because there are areas of our country wherein violent crime hasn't declined. And there are segments of our population wherein violent crime hasn't declined. But, generally....murders, rapes, arsons, burglaries and other violent crime is thankfully on the decline.

Of course, the decline in violent crime in the US may be explained by the fact that we now have more people (as a percentage of our population) in prison than ever before.

AF

 

[LizzieMaine]

It really does depend on where you live. We've always had very little violent crime here -- we measured in terms of crimes per decade, not per year -- but over the last five years or so things have spiraled upward, mostly due to out-of-state drug traffic moving up here in search of fresh markets. A serial home-invasion rapist was on the rampage here last year -- they just convicted him --, a woman was strangled to death in her downtown apartment last winter by a drug/booze-addled ex-boyfriend, and just yesterday an elderly woman was stabbed to death in her living room by another drugged-up punk. This sort of thing was unheard of here just five years ago, but it seems like it's all over the place now. I think we need to put a barricade at the Kittery border.

 

[Atticus Finch]

It really does depend on where you live. We've always had very little violent crime here -- we measured in terms of crimes per decade, not per year -- but over the last five years or so things have spiraled upward, mostly due to out-of-state drug traffic moving up here in search of fresh markets.

I couldn't help but be impressed that there are only about only 600 murder per year in the UK. North Carolina, alone, had about 600 murders last year...and our state's population is just a shade over eight million.

AF

 

[djd]

It's harder to kill peole without easy access to guns. That's just a fact not a political statement

Murder without guns requires a lot more thought and consideration.

On the earlier question of where the fault lies and where the line is drawn, I'd say this: I am a strict parent. My son knows where the boundaries are and the difference between right and wrong. I would never use physical punishment. If the kid has been bought up properly that is not necessary. Im far from a perfect parent but at least I hope I'm giving our son a chance to be a productive member of society in the future. At least he'll understand that there are rules in the work place

 

[W-D Forties]

On the earlier question of where the fault lies and where the line is drawn, I'd say this: I am a strict parent. My son knows where the boundaries are and the difference between right and wrong. I would never use physical punishment. If the kid has been bought up properly that is not necessary. Im far from a perfect parent but at least I hope I'm giving our son a chance to be a productive member of society in the future. At least he'll understand that there are rules in the work place

I agree wholeheartedly djd, speaking as a parent. We as parents are the starting point and the end. I know that other factors come into play when our kids are outside our doors and our influence, but if you give them a good grounding in what is right and decent, then hopfully they will make the right choices in life.
Speaking as a teacher, I'm glad we can no longer use physical punishment. It's not the answer, especially as many of the kids we would 'need' to dish it out to get far too much of it at home already. Unfortunately, many of these children are very damaged by the time they get to school.

Thinking about things another way; when I was a kid I was never supervised for much of the time - we just 'knocked' for our mates and were off to play. Although we were all basically good kids, I'm sure there were times when we were less than perfect. The difference these days is that we are all predisposed to see children, and especially teenagers, as 'the enemy'. As a society we are all watching them, waiting for them to screw up so we can point the finger and call them feckless hoodies. Speaking from experience in some very challeging schools, the vast majority of teenagers are lovely. Yes they make mistakes, we all did as teenagers, but learning from them is a life skill that we, as adults need to teach.