The general decline in standards today

[Matt Crunk]

Some interesting thoughts on the Methodist view of tithing can be found here.

No need. I too was raised Methodist. I just fell out of the habit of attending church many years ago. Thank you very much for answering my question.

 

[vintageTink]

As far as turning to crime, my point was that if children are not fed, often they take to stealing food and/or other things to buy food that they need to survive. That hurts everyone- it turns hungry children into criminals in the judicial system AND hurts the people who are stolen from. Stealing food is a crime (legally at least- morally is another question). That is the sort of crime I'm referring to, not other crime. (I've known, unfortunately, more than one child who was chronically starved/ severely hungry. People go a bit batty when they are chronically malnourished.)

However, at the opposite end of the spectrum from your parents you have people like one of my former participants. She grew up in public housing (her parents moved to the first public housing in her city). She moved back into public housing as an adult to care for her aging mother until she died. She then, unfortunately, had a series of life events that put her back into public housing (she was in a car accident that left her partially disabled, the victim of a very violent crime, widowed, lost her livelihood due to PTSD from the crime, retrained, but never made as much money- all in a period of less than 2 years). Along the way she raised five kids.

Those five kids are (in birth order): a surgeon, a sheriff's deputy, a former nurse who is now a stay-at-home mom, a decorated city police officer, and a high school teacher. All have probably paid back in taxes at least 50 times the amount of money that it took to house them, feed them, and educate them- and they are nowhere near retirement.

I'd say that was a damned good investment to turn out five professionals. That's the way I look at it.

There were plenty of times I went hungry. It never occurred to me to go steal from others.
You could say any type of crime was due to hunger and poverty and it shouldn't be a crime.
Oh, you stabbed someone? I'm poor and hungry. You robbed a gas station? Poor and hungry. Sold drugs? Poor and hungry.
You could justify anything.

And I have no problem helping people; she obviously needed it. But I refuse to depend on the government to assist others for me, and they're still not entitled to my paycheck no matter how bad off they are. Let ME help someone. Let me have the joy of doing for others. If I choose not to that's on my conscience and between me and God.
Confiscation for the supposed good of the masses is theft. Taking money from A to give to B is theft no matter the reason.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

There were plenty of times I went hungry. It never occurred to me to go steal from others.
You could say any type of crime was due to hunger and poverty and it shouldn't be a crime.
Oh, you stabbed someone? I'm poor and hungry. You robbed a gas station? Poor and hungry. Sold drugs? Poor and hungry.
You could justify anything.

And I have no problem helping people; she obviously needed it. But I refuse to depend on the government to assist others for me, and they're still not entitled to my paycheck no matter how bad off they are. Let ME help someone. Let me have the joy of doing for others. If I choose not to that's on my conscience and between me and God.
Confiscation for the supposed good of the masses is theft. Taking money from A to give to B is theft no matter the reason.

Good post Tink...and I wholeheartly agree..!!
HD

 

[Edward]

"Tax is theft" = politics.... csn we veer away from the verbotem, please?

Whoever started it. This has turned ugly before.

 

[Two Types]

This is definitely straying into political territory here. Please get back to discussing charity in the depression etc ....

.... otherwise some of us Europeans might think it's appropriate to start discussing our views on guns.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Geez, what did I miss?

[video=youtube;HEI8nk-S7GU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEI8nk-S7GU[/video]

 

[Stray Cat]

.... otherwise some of us Europeans might think it's appropriate to start discussing our views on guns.

:eusa_clap

 

[LizzieMaine]

Geez, what did I miss?

You snooze, you lose.

 

[Stray Cat]

Geez, what did I miss?

I tried to keep up, but it happened so fast.. like a forest fire.. one match and.. :flame::target:

 

[vintageTink]

Probably been mentioned before, but no one holds doors open anymore. I do it and they stare at me like I have three heads.

 

[sheeplady]

There were plenty of times I went hungry. It never occurred to me to go steal from others.
You could say any type of crime was due to hunger and poverty and it shouldn't be a crime.
Oh, you stabbed someone? I'm poor and hungry. You robbed a gas station? Poor and hungry. Sold drugs? Poor and hungry.
You could justify anything.

And I have no problem helping people; she obviously needed it. But I refuse to depend on the government to assist others for me, and they're still not entitled to my paycheck no matter how bad off they are. Let ME help someone. Let me have the joy of doing for others. If I choose not to that's on my conscience and between me and God.
Confiscation for the supposed good of the masses is theft. Taking money from A to give to B is theft no matter the reason.

I just have the view that there are different levels of stealing because I don't see everything in black and white.

Taking a few extra ketchup packets at a fast food place to make ketchup soup for your kids and you/ yourself? Legally stealing. Slightly morally wrong, but understandable and forgivable if you're hungry. (If you're doing it to avoid buying your own ketchup, very wrong.)
Digging through a dumpster to feed yourself? Legally stealing. Understandable and forgivable.
Smuggling food part of your free lunch out of a cafeteria as a kid when you're not allowed to do so due to school rules? Again, stealing. Understandable and forgivable.

Particularly in the second two circumstances, I find the laws and rules regarding this sort of thing to be twisted. In the case of the dumpster, I understand that it is for the safety of the people who might be hunting for food. However, tons of places throw out edible food. One of the reasons why I shop at Wegmans (a regional grocery store) is that they allow individuals to pick through the vegetables and fruits they are about to throw out for free. Anyone can do this regardless of income level- you just need to come at the allotted time. It saves food waste and helps individuals.

With the third scenario, I understand that it is for allergy reasons. But if a food item is paid for (either by the individual themselves or by a free lunch entity) I find this policy of making a child throw away uneaten food that would keep well until the end of the school day (such as fruit) to be extremely wasteful and unsettling. Even more unsettling is the fact that in many of the local school districts that prohibit "stealing food from the lunchroom" the punishment is detention for even elementary students. But then I really really hate food waste and I find a lot of school policies to be stupid.

 

[vintageTink]

When I had free lunches, you couldn't remove food from the cafeteria simply because food wasn't allowed in the classrooms. It had nothing to do with considering it stealing.
One of the schools I went to would even serve seconds if there was enough leftover.

And if you paid for the fast food, getting a packet of ketchup...you paid for it. I'm not sure how that's stealing.

Anyway, let's find another topic. This will escalate quickly. :rofl:

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Taking a few extra ketchup packets at a fast food place to make ketchup soup for your kids and you/ yourself? Legally stealing. Slightly morally wrong, but understandable and forgivable if you're hungry. (If you're doing it to avoid buying your own ketchup, very wrong.)

One of my neighbours does that because he's cheap and a hoarder. And I should add that this guy is fairly well off.

 

[sheeplady]

One of my neighbours does that because he's cheap and a hoarder. And I should add that this guy is fairly well off.

Yeah... I've known a number of people who do this and think nothing of it. If you accidentally took too many packets and you're sick or something or the place won't take it back, by all means, take it home. If you get carry out and they give you too many then use it. I think using it rather than throwing it out is the right thing to do. But to go in and purposefully take ketchup with the intent of not having to buy your own, that's pretty twisted. We all end up paying for these people's ketchup.

 

[Stanley Doble]

Probably been mentioned before, but no one holds doors open anymore. I do it and they stare at me like I have three heads.

I used to do that but got tuned in by the feminists in the 70s. Now I only open doors for the disabled.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I used to do that but got tuned in by the feminists in the 70s. Now I only open doors for the disabled.

Up here people still hold doors, probably because our median age is 47. If you don't hold the door, you're liable to get swatted with a cane.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Yeah... I've known a number of people who do this and think nothing of it. If you accidentally took too many packets and you're sick or something or the place won't take it back, by all means, take it home. If you get carry out and they give you too many then use it. I think using it rather than throwing it out is the right thing to do. But to go in and purposefully take ketchup with the intent of not having to buy your own, that's pretty twisted. We all end up paying for these people's ketchup.

I've also been to restaurants with this guy and when it comes time to settle the bill he whips out his credit card like lightning (for the rewards points) so we have to settle with him. He then hounds us not to forget to include the tax and tip when we put in our share. Unfortunately, we're pretty sure that he pockets the tip.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Yeah... I've known a number of people who do this and think nothing of it. If you accidentally took too many packets and you're sick or something or the place won't take it back, by all means, take it home. If you get carry out and they give you too many then use it. I think using it rather than throwing it out is the right thing to do. But to go in and purposefully take ketchup with the intent of not having to buy your own, that's pretty twisted. We all end up paying for these people's ketchup.

My grandparents called that "Hoover Soup," and were well-acquainted with it. The original method was to go into a lunchroom and order a cup of coffee for a nickel. You'd drink the coffee, and then ask for a cup of plain hot water, and then you'd pour a dollop of ketchup into it from the bottle on the counter. Stir, add salt, and it was a passable lunch if you couldn't afford anything else.

 

[sheeplady]

My grandparents called that "Hoover Soup," and were well-acquainted with it. The original method was to go into a lunchroom and order a cup of coffee for a nickel. You'd drink the coffee, and then ask for a cup of plain hot water, and then you'd pour a dollop of ketchup into it from the bottle on the counter. Stir, add salt, and it was a passable lunch if you couldn't afford anything else.

Yeah, if you're hungry, go ahead. It might be stealing, technically, but it's forgivable because you're hungry. I've eaten ketchup soup- it's not too bad considering most places have brand-name ketchup. Just to keep yourself from buying a $2 bottle of ketchup when you can afford it, however? Totally morally wrong. Especially those people who go in and take like 10 or 20 packets.... obviously stocking up for the winter.

I've also been to restaurants with this guy and when it comes time to settle the bill he whips out his credit card like lightning (for the rewards points) so we have to settle with him. He then hounds us not to forget to include the tax and tip when we put in our share. Unfortunately, we're pretty sure that he pockets the tip.

That's horrible. And he's probably so proud that he's so "frugal." I'm pretty sure there's a special circle of hell for people who don't tip as a general rule. I'm willing to bet he's the type that would scream bloody murder if he thought he was getting cheated too.

 

[Matt Crunk]

I just have the view that there are different levels of stealing because I don't see everything in black and white.

Taking a few extra ketchup packets at a fast food place to make ketchup soup for your kids and you/ yourself? Legally stealing.
Digging through a dumpster to feed yourself? Legally stealing. Understandable and forgivable.
Smuggling food part of your free lunch out of a cafeteria as a kid when you're not allowed to do so due to school rules? Again, stealing. Understandable and forgivable.

I fail to see how any of this is stealing.
The ketchup is put out there to be taken as needed. As long as you are a paying customer, and there are no posted limits on what you can take, take what you need.
I believe anything discarded as trash is free for the taking.
How can smuggling food that's part of your free lunch be stealing? It's yours. It was given to you. Who cares if you eat it now or later?

I get take out from fast food places just about every day for lunch. There is one particular place nearby that has great black plastic forks that they put out for their customers. Every time I go there I always grab a few extra forks for all those times when I go to other places that provide less than stellar forkage, or ever worse, sporks. I see nothing wrong with it, as I am a good customer there and give them my business on average about twice a week.