The general decline in standards today

[Undertow]

-sadistic erotica has a long history going back hundreds of years. examples include '120 days of Sodom' 1791 (by the Marquis de Sade who 'sadism' is named after)...

Much of Sade's writing was published in a lump because it was so difficult to secure a press and a printer willing to run off the literature. Sade likely wrote these earlier but so much of his work has been lost, and there was necessity for such secrecy that no one will ever know. He was also imprisoned for much of his life and therefore publishing was a difficult task.

Whereas 120 Days of Sodom appears to have been written merely to disgust, stories like The Mystified Magistrate were actually decent literature scorning the French government, calling out corruption, ridiculing religion and morality, etc.

Sade knew his literature would be scorned no matter what he wrote, so long as it was a subject he enjoyed writing. Thus, stories like 120 Days of Sodom are pretty filthy and no fun to read. They're also poor examples of Sade's talent, unfortunately. Of course, those are the stories everyone remembers. C'est la vie.

 

[Edward]

Much of Sade's writing was published in a lump because it was so difficult to secure a press and a printer willing to run off the literature. Sade likely wrote these earlier but so much of his work has been lost, and there was necessity for such secrecy that no one will ever know. He was also imprisoned for much of his life and therefore publishing was a difficult task.

Whereas 120 Days of Sodom appears to have been written merely to disgust, stories like The Mystified Magistrate were actually decent literature scorning the French government, calling out corruption, ridiculing religion and morality, etc.

Sade knew his literature would be scorned no matter what he wrote, so long as it was a subject he enjoyed writing. Thus, stories like 120 Days of Sodom are pretty filthy and no fun to read. They're also poor examples of Sade's talent, unfortunately. Of course, those are the stories everyone remembers. C'est la vie.

Always the way.... Chuck Berry's only UK umber 1 was My Dingaling, and Queen are better known for their novelty records like Bohemian Rhapsody than their good music. Just two examples off the top of my head....

 

[hatophile]

Always the way.... Chuck Berry's only UK umber 1 was My Dingaling, and Queen are better known for their novelty records like Bohemian Rhapsody than their good music. Just two examples off the top of my head....

I rather like Bohemian Rhapsody, it's a very playful song.

 

[sheeplady]

"We've come so far."

Exactly. I come from the point of view that I don't care which person is getting abused; the if the relationship is unhealthy it is therefore not appropriate reading for teen girls (or boys). Although, from my understanding, the book doesn't really appeal to boys or men, so it's mainly women. It's not like it's any better if your son is being abused compared to your daughter.

Not that porn or erotica frames appropriate relationships for anyone, but we live in a society where most parents have the attitude of "If I forbid my child from seeing X (X being abusive or controlling) they'll just rebel and see them more." Parents don't even discuss healthy relationships, let alone warn their kid that their boyfriend or girlfriend's behavior reeks of abuse and/or control for fear that the child will leave or do something irrational. Parents don't seem to realize there is a whole spectrum between "you can't see so and so" and never talking to your child about how a relationship should progress. So kids base their entire knowledge of relationships from what they see in their world- and a large part of that is the media. And most of the relationships in media are not healthy.

 

[jamespowers]

So kids base their entire knowledge of relationships from what they see in their world- and a large part of that is the media. And most of the relationships in media are not healthy.

That is another area of decline. We went from Father Knows Best to Married with Children. Decline yes but more like cliff diving between the two.:eusa_doh:

 

[scottyrocks]

Exactly. I come from the point of view that I don't care which person is getting abused; the if the relationship is unhealthy it is therefore not appropriate reading for teen girls (or boys). Although, from my understanding, the book doesn't really appeal to boys or men, so it's mainly women. It's not like it's any better if your son is being abused compared to your daughter.

Not that porn or erotica frames appropriate relationships for anyone, but we live in a society where most parents have the attitude of "If I forbid my child from seeing X (X being abusive or controlling) they'll just rebel and see them more." Parents don't even discuss healthy relationships, let alone warn their kid that their boyfriend or girlfriend's behavior reeks of abuse and/or control for fear that the child will leave or do something irrational. Parents don't seem to realize there is a whole spectrum between "you can't see so and so" and never talking to your child about how a relationship should progress. So kids base their entire knowledge of relationships from what they see in their world- and a large part of that is the media. And most of the relationships in media are not healthy.

Actually, of the major characters in the book, the only one who was abused was the leading male, the dom, as it were. The story is actually about his evolution from his dark place to one of normalcy. The writing level is that of an eighth grader, and that garners the majority of the criticism of the books, at least as far as I have heard and read.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

But don't such books act as life-teaching aids? (At least in a small way, complementary to "the talks" with parents) It would be dreadful, surely, to begin to engage with adult life - let's say when a kid goes to college - without an understanding that abusive relationships exist, and how to begin to recognise when someone is being manipulative.

I would have thought this kind of book would be useful, even if only for that. I'm not all that far removed from 6 years in a US college town, and the lack of adjustment/maturity was astonishing, even - maybe especially - among graduate students. I, and many of my European contemporaries, were shocked and saddened by the level of misogyny and sexism encountered amongst the males and downright subservience amongst the females.

Perhaps with more such "literature" - for all its flaws - US and world youth would be better able to begin to engage with the kind of manipulative people they will encounter as they begin their sexual experimentation, be more able to say NO, and not feel embarrassed by that. To prevent young people from reading such books serves only to keep them in the dark, to keep them ignorant of the realities of adult interaction. They need to be more aware, or they will be abused.

Exactly. I come from the point of view that I don't care which person is getting abused; the if the relationship is unhealthy it is therefore not appropriate reading for teen girls (or boys).

 

[LizzieMaine]

Frankly, the thing I find repellent isn't the sex stuff, although I'd rather read a Burmese phone book than so-called modern erotica, but rather the whole "wealth is the ultimate aphrodisiac" canard. In my reporter days I interviewed more than a few very wealthy men, and with only two exceptions they came across as self-absorbed, self-satisfied swaggering jerks. A woman who's more aroused by a man's wallet than she is by his character deserves exactly what she's going to get, and a woman who perpetuates that foolishness for the sake of making a buck herself has absolutely zero respect from me.

 

[sheeplady]

But don't such books act as life-teaching aids? (At least in a small way, complementary to "the talks" with parents) It would be dreadful, surely, to begin to engage with adult life - let's say when a kid goes to college - without an understanding that abusive relationships exist, and how to begin to recognise when someone is being manipulative.

I would have thought this kind of book would be useful, even if only for that. I'm not all that far removed from 6 years in a US college town, and the lack of adjustment/maturity was astonishing, even - maybe especially - among graduate students. I, and many of my European contemporaries, were shocked and saddened by the level of misogyny and sexism encountered amongst the males and downright subservience amongst the females.

The problem is that most parent's don't have these talks. I personally have no problem with it being published. If I read it (and it wasn't really horrific) I'd have no problem with my child reading it, as long as I knew about it and they were willing to talk to me about it and they were at an appropriate age (later teens). I'm not a big fan of censorship of reading past a certain age. I read lots of fiction that wasn't "mainstream" that portrayed all sorts of relationships. I read the Scarlett Letter when I was in 8th grade, with the strong support of my parents; I also read a lot of other books that to this day I'm amazed my small school library held. But I was also raised in a family that spoke openly of abusive relationships- and I had plenty of both good and bad examples (and my parents pointed out the bad examples and explained why they were bad; the same with the good). I didn't need every relationships I saw or read about dissected, because I had been guided enough as I grew up to understand good from bad.

I think your evidence that college and graduate students are ill prepared for relationships speaks less to the fact that they weren't given enough bad or good examples, but more to the point that the bad and good examples weren't examined by their parents or other adults in their lives. Lots of parents in the U.S. have a really hands off approach to the relationships and sexual activities of their children. They'd rather pretend their child is an innocent than prepare them for life. I think the focus should be more on guidance.

 

[1961MJS]

That is another area of decline. We went from Father Knows Best to Married with Children. Decline yes but more like cliff diving between the two.:eusa_doh:

Hi James

True, but if you can't watch Married with Children and feel better about your family, well, maybe ending it all IS your better option. :eusa_clap Seriously, who thought Peg was a model wife, Al was a model husband, Bud the perfect son, and Kelly the pillar of virtue. Father knows best was a cruel look at what your family should have been.

WHOOOOOO Bundy

 

[jamespowers]

Hi James

True, but if you can't watch Married with Children and feel better about your family, well, maybe ending it all IS your better option. :eusa_clap Seriously, who thought Peg was a model wife, Al was a model husband, Bud the perfect son, and Kelly the pillar of virtue. Father knows best was a cruel look at what your family should have been.

WHOOOOOO Bundy

Yes but is it better to watch something to aspire to or something you can look down upon?

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Yes but is it better to watch something to aspire to or something you can look down upon?

I think that was one of the appeals of Jerry Springer. Watching it after having a rotten day one could come away with the feeling that, hey, at least I'm not that screwed up.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Here's a dandy example of Modern Family Values. Kid gets his hand pulled off while dangling a jumprope out the car window, and his dad sues his own mother (or mother-in-law), who was driving the car, for negligence.

Classy.

 

[hatophile]

Here's a dandy example of Modern Family Values. Kid gets his hand pulled off while dangling a jumprope out the car window, and his dad sues his own mother (or mother-in-law), who was driving the car, for negligence.


Classy.

Now THAT is a decline in standards!

 

[AmateisGal]

Lots of parents in the U.S. have a really hands off approach to the relationships and sexual activities of their children. They'd rather pretend their child is an innocent than prepare them for life. I think the focus should be more on guidance.

Not me. A hands off approach in relationships, etc., for kids these days is a recipe for danger, IMO. My daughter, who is 12, and I talk all the time about subjects like this. She wanted to read the Twilight books, and I let her read the first three - but we definitely talked about all of the issues that those books raised. Those books were the perfect segway into those types of discussions.

 

[1961MJS]

Yes but is it better to watch something to aspire to or something you can look down upon?

Well James, it IS better to watch something to aspire to. BUTTTTT( a large one) most Americans would rather look down and say, well, at least I'm not that screwed up. Unfortunate, but true.

Later

 

[sheeplady]

Not me. A hands off approach in relationships, etc., for kids these days is a recipe for danger, IMO. My daughter, who is 12, and I talk all the time about subjects like this. She wanted to read the Twilight books, and I let her read the first three - but we definitely talked about all of the issues that those books raised. Those books were the perfect segway into those types of discussions.

That's excellent! Sadly, many parents refuse to do that.

 

[Angus Forbes]

Yes but is it better to watch something to aspire to or something you can look down upon?

An easy one for me -- it's much better to watch something that you can aspire to. This is how we learn; this is how we improve.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Then you've got the goofy parents who say that if their kids express curiosity about pot they'll smoke some with them. :doh:

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Here's a dandy example of Modern Family Values. Kid gets his hand pulled off while dangling a jumprope out the car window, and his dad sues his own mother (or mother-in-law), who was driving the car, for negligence.

Classy.

I had the same reaction when I read that earlier today.