The general decline in standards today

[LizzieMaine]

Go figure..government handout to those who need it least..

Nancy Reagan, Welfare Queen. Ah, the irony of it all.

 

[Angus Forbes]

OK, somebody has to do it, so I will: "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

 

[sheeplady]

I have to say, speaking now as an outsider to America, I find that a really quite bizarre phenomenon in a country where President is an office held rather than an honour bestowed. From here it looks as though you have a really really limited form of "life peerage" granted solely to all former presidents. Does this come from early presidents being so respected that the honourific remained for them after they left office (I'm thinking here of Washington et al) or is it a new phenomenon?

I'm not sure I understand your question, so tell me if I don't answer it. The original presidents, Washington in particular, insisted on being called Mister after leaving office. The idea is that it is an honor, and that honor is recognized (former presidents are typically treated with utmost respect, particularly decades after leaving office.) However, the idea in popular culture is that common citizens can become president (not something that is necessarily true) and they return to being common citizens following their service. It in some ways is like serving in the military- your rank in the military doesn't follow you forever in civilian life after you retire or leave the armed forces. Our president is the head of the military in the U.S.

Addressing individuals as "President So-and-So" as a matter of fact following their time served is hat I have an issue with, as it doesn't reflect the fact that now, although the former president deserves our respect, s/he is no different from the rest of us. They still only have one vote and aren't legally elected to any office of power. It's different if they say "Former President So-and-So" and then address them by Mister (or Ms. or Mrs. when that day comes). You can give respect without using a title/ rank they no longer hold. We only have one president elected at a time, and therefore, only one person can hold the title.

Technically, someone could be a president and go on to hold another prestigious title, such as Ambassador, etc. which drives home the necessity to have clarity in what one should call a former president. By addressing former presidents as "president" I feel it negates some of the great things former presidents have done for our country out of office as private citizens or in other elected or appointed roles. Some former presidents have done a lot for the U.S. after serving in the office of president- for instance- Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton- both of which have done private and public service to the country.

 

[Flicka]

OK, somebody has to do it, so I will: "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

And the best argument FOR democracy is usually a five-minute "conversation" with an average dictator's average secret police...

 

[Angus Forbes]

Flicka, you point is, of course, exactly right. But somebody had to come up with the Churchill quote.

I actually met the personal bodyguard for Indonesian dictator Sukarno circa 1963, and indeed had a conversation with him (in the USA). He was very polite, but my goodness, what a scary scary fellow!

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

And the best argument against democracy is a lynch mob as it is the purest embodiment (at the microcosmic level) of the majoritarian rule principle of democracy.
It's also interesting to note that most dictators came to power as part of some sort of popular movement.

 

[sheeplady]

And the best argument against democracy is a lynch mob as it is the purest embodiment (at the microcosmic level) of the majoritarian rule principle of democracy.
It's also interesting to note that most dictators came to power as part of some sort of popular movement.

I think that's because most rising dictators are:
1. Really good propaganda people
2. Get rid of dissent quickly and ruthlessly
3. Take advantage of populations who are down and out and have a void of leadership

 

[William Stratford]

I'm not sure I understand your question, so tell me if I don't answer it. The original presidents, Washington in particular, insisted on being called Mister after leaving office. The idea is that it is an honor, and that honor is recognized (former presidents are typically treated with utmost respect, particularly decades after leaving office.) However, the idea in popular culture is that common citizens can become president (not something that is necessarily true) and they return to being common citizens following their service. It in some ways is like serving in the military- your rank in the military doesn't follow you forever in civilian life after you retire or leave the armed forces. Our president is the head of the military in the U.S.

Addressing individuals as "President So-and-So" as a matter of fact following their time served is hat I have an issue with, as it doesn't reflect the fact that now, although the former president deserves our respect, s/he is no different from the rest of us. They still only have one vote and aren't legally elected to any office of power. It's different if they say "Former President So-and-So" and then address them by Mister (or Ms. or Mrs. when that day comes). You can give respect without using a title/ rank they no longer hold. We only have one president elected at a time, and therefore, only one person can hold the title.

Technically, someone could be a president and go on to hold another prestigious title, such as Ambassador, etc. which drives home the necessity to have clarity in what one should call a former president. By addressing former presidents as "president" I feel it negates some of the great things former presidents have done for our country out of office as private citizens or in other elected or appointed roles. Some former presidents have done a lot for the U.S. after serving in the office of president- for instance- Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton- both of which have done private and public service to the country.

Sorry, I think we may have crossed wires. By "Honour" I meant akin to a bestowed title here in England....making the ex presidents a de facto form of "life peerage".

 

[LizzieMaine]

Interestingly, when Eisenhower left office he preferred not to be called "Mr. President" anymore. He preferred to be called "General."

 

[Flicka]

Flicka, you point is, of course, exactly right. But somebody had to come up with the Churchill quote.

I got the irony, and believe me, I know the feeling.

Reminds me of a guy I used to know - we were at this party at a "stately home" and had a very similar discussion on account of having withdrawn to the library where there were lot of pics of old members of the royal family (the objects of our scorn, obviously). Our discussion ended with him professing that 95% of all humans are complete idiots. We then got separated but after about an hour he sought me out and wanted to talk some more.

"I was thinking about that thing I said," he said. "I was wrong, you know."

"Really?" I said.

"Yeah," he replied. "I should have said 98%!"

I actually met the personal bodyguard for Indonesian dictator Sukarno circa 1963, and indeed had a conversation with him (in the USA). He was very polite, but my goodness, what a scary scary fellow!

Sometimes it's almost impossible to comprehend what the person in front of you is capable of even when they tell you...

 

[William Stratford]

And the best argument FOR democracy is usually a five-minute "conversation" with an average dictator's average secret police...

Actually, that is an argument against dictatorship, not for democracy. They arn't the only two choices.

 

[sheeplady]

Flicka, you point is, of course, exactly right. But somebody had to come up with the Churchill quote.

I actually met the personal bodyguard for Indonesian dictator Sukarno circa 1963, and indeed had a conversation with him (in the USA). He was very polite, but my goodness, what a scary scary fellow!

A higher up from Iran's SAVAK (secret police) was given amnesty by the United States. He maintains a home in NYC and has a gentleman's farm near my parents. He called my parents once insisting that they let him borrow a sheep so that his nieces and nephews could see a sheep lamb (have it's babies). He isn't a man used to hearing the word "no." He actually came and visited my parents and asked around in the community about them when they said no. My father described him as a seemingly nice gentleman who he'd never in a million years come close to crossing because he was also quite scary.

It's very weird to drive by a mass murder's house and see him standing out in the yard. Kind of gives me the creeps. Ok, it totally creeps me out bad enough I want to go home and scrub myself in the shower for an hour.

 

[Lord Brett]

It's a postwar phenomenon, at least so far as the former President receiving a lifetime of privileges is concerned. When Harry Truman -- our last lower-middle-class president -- left office in 1953, he had to pay his own train fare back to Missouri, and ran into some severe financial problems stemming from debts that had pre-dated his presidency. The embarrasment of all this resulted in the Former Presidents Act of 1958, which authorized a lifetime pension to former presidents, along with a federal stipend to cover the cost of office staff, subsidized health insurance, and Secret Service protection. This was a great idea for somebody like Truman, who was just an ordinary Midwestern yokel who stumbled into the presidency and never had much money, but it's a bit ridiculous when you consider the financial status of the more recent crop of ex-presidents.

The same sort of thing tends to happen unofficially with recent British Prime Ministers, who are not hugely well-salaried by the stardards of people running large corporations, never mind countries. Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair both set up foundations and have made millions since leaving office.

Ironically, our most recent ex-PM (Gordon Brown) has been slated by the more right wing elements of the British press for earning fees for the occasional lecture, despite the fact that his foundation appears (unlike some) to be a genuinely charitable endeavor and the amounts concerned are relatively small.

That's the British press for you!

 

[jamespowers]

The only thing that justifies that law, to me, is that HST got to benefit from it.

Harry and Bess taking in a ball game in Kansas City, with nary a Secret Service man in sight. Note that the ex-First Couple is sitting in the cheap upper deck seats, as Harry gabs it up with some random guy in the next row. "They gotta pull Portacarreo -- he's hangin' the curve ball."

That picture definitely supports a decline in standards. Look how everyone was dressed to go to a ball game. Now they look like they are going to mow the lawn.

 

[John in Covina]

I actually met the personal bodyguard for Indonesian dictator Sukarno circa 1963, and indeed had a conversation with him (in the USA). He was very polite, but my goodness, what a scary scary fellow!

Power of any sort tends to collect these types of people for whom empathy and sympathy for others is not genetically imprinted on their being. This allows for all sorts of scary stuff.

Similarly, we have found that political people find support people that are loyal not to the country but to them and are willing to fall on the sword for them.

 

[John in Covina]

Ironically, our most recent ex-PM (Gordon Brown) has been slated by the more right wing elements of the British press for earning fees for the occasional lecture, despite the fact that his foundation appears (unlike some) to be a genuinely charitable endeavor and the amounts concerned are relatively small.

That's the British press for you!

It not whether it's true or not but that you can make it stick for a while.

 

[kamikat]

Addressing individuals as "President So-and-So" as a matter of fact following their time served is hat I have an issue with, as it doesn't reflect the fact that now, although the former president deserves our respect, s/he is no different from the rest of us. They still only have one vote and aren't legally elected to any office of power. It's different if they say "Former President So-and-So" and then address them by Mister (or Ms. or Mrs. when that day comes). You can give respect without using a title/ rank they no longer hold. We only have one president elected at a time, and therefore, only one person can hold the title.

Former Mayors and Govenors are also referred to by their former title.

 

[Undertow]

Nancy Reagan, Welfare Queen. Ah, the irony of it all.

lol

(My staunch Republican friends will not find the humor in this, alas!)

 

[jamespowers]

Interestingly, when Eisenhower left office he preferred not to be called "Mr. President" anymore. He preferred to be called "General."

Because General is a more respected title. :rofl:

 

[Undertow]

Because General is a more respected title. :rofl:

Ain't that the truth? The first thing I thought when I saw that picture of Truman at the ball game was, "Wow, and no one is wrestling him to the ground with their hands around his throat?"