The general decline in standards today

[Edward]

Then perhaps you are more fortunate in your surroundings



Perhaps if you put down the Guardian you'd have a better view.

The Graun lost me when they started up with articles on men's fashion featuring GBP700 jeans.... I'm sure it does vary between areas... I've just never found it as bad in the vast majority of places as somm seem to think. I live in inner East London, though. [huh]

London is actually much nicer than more provinicial areas of the UK when it comes to drunken idiots. I live in Sheffield, and certainly West Street (one of the main drinking streets) is certainly not a nice place to walk down on a Friday or Saturday night. That said, I do think a lot of the "social degeneracy" talked about by the media is overblown.

The biggest difference I notice is between big cities and countryside. I suppose it's probably true every city has a no-go area, moreso than maybe the sticks, but on the flipside I find the cities far more tolerant of those of us who qualify as "different" in how we look. Back in the day when I used to wear a lot of nail varnish I could very quickly tell a lot about an area with regards to whether I garnered abuse. I once had a particularly vicious torrent of "freak" in Clacton on Sea for daring to wear a leather trenchcoat and a dog collar (among other things... I could have understood if that was all I was wearing. ). Nobody in dear London gives a damn what I wear. I've gone out in full drag on the tube (and believe me, there's no way I could have passed as female) and barely a notice. I love that.

I'm usually the first to complain about the empty-headed consumerism that rules today's society, but lets face it, not everything is necessarily crap today. Maybe the overall sum is pretty crappy, but lets not get carried away about the parts.

Exactly. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I honestly think most of those I have met who fixate on how awful the modern world is wouldn't be happy anywhere (or any time).

This is hyperbole and I live in the most atheist country in the world and I'm Catholic. Sure I get some slack, but I'm hardly persecuted. People think I'm nuts but they do respect my right to be nuts.

The use of the word "persecution" really makes me angry, especially when a] it is so often used by those who feel "persecuted" by any law which would prevent them from discriminating against (or, indeed persecuting) others, and b] when there really are Christians in some parts fo the world today who really are in fear of persecution, including death.

The irreligeous here have a disdain for the religeous that is palpable.

I have seen individual instances of that, but it's far from uniform. I've also seen exactly the same attitudes in vice versa - and moreso.

I think the general cultural hostility to religion is a very new, recent thing -- a backlash against the rise of Evangelicalism. Sixty years ago, modern Evangelicalism held little influence outside the American South -- but since the late 1970s, it's expanded aggressively to the point where a whole generation of people has grown up thinking it's the sole and unchallenged voice of Christianity, and they judge all "religion" by its excesses. As someone who grew up a New England mind-your-own-business Methodist, I simply point out that there's plenty of honest Christianity in the world that has nothing whatsoever to do with those excesses -- and the militant atheist crowd accomplishes nothing constructive by tarring all believers with the same brush.

This is exactly my experience (I think the young people might call it "payback's a bitch", just a shame it hits the "innocent" alike). To be fair, I also see exactly the same thing in reverse. Not every atheist is a Dawkins crusader. The extremes do seem to be much more pronounced in the US than in Europe for the most part. Oddly enough, when you do meet one of the atheist equivalents of Fred Phelps in the UK, likely as not the "evils" of Christianity to which they point are all based on the likes of Phelps and other high-profile, US evangelicals. That and the creationist movement, abortion-clinic bombers, and whatever. Maybe that's just what gets all the press? [huh]

Whatever, always seems to that there is still much to be learned from the bible... not least that when you look at what the authors chose to record of the life of Christ, there's relatively little preaching (most of which boils down to showing people a little love and not judging them), and far more simply hanging out with people, often the rejects of society, and showing them a bit of love. Whatever one's views on the existence or otherwise of the Divine, if we all tried to follow that a bit more, the world would be a nicer place.

 

[AntonAAK]

Oddly enough, when you do meet one of the atheist equivalents of Fred Phelps in the UK,

You've really met such a person? Really?

I'd be interested to know which Bishop's funeral he and his followers were picketing?

 

[LizzieMaine]

This is exactly my experience (I think the young people might call it "payback's a bitch", just a shame it hits the "innocent" alike). To be fair, I also see exactly the same thing in reverse. Not every atheist is a Dawkins crusader. The extremes do seem to be much more pronounced in the US than in Europe for the most part. Oddly enough, when you do meet one of the atheist equivalents of Fred Phelps in the UK, likely as not the "evils" of Christianity to which they point are all based on the likes of Phelps and other high-profile, US evangelicals. That and the creationist movement, abortion-clinic bombers, and whatever. Maybe that's just what gets all the press? [huh]

Exactly. There's nothing the remotest bit Christian about Phelps and others of that ilk -- he can call himself whatever he likes, but he and his followers have nothing whatever to do with actual Christianity. I think part of the problem is that people have become so apathetic and disconnected from such matters that any fraud or fanatic can come along, wave a Bible around, and people take him at face value. If more people actually knew anything about the Bible -- whether or not they choose to believe in it -- it'd be a lot more difficult for crackpots and racketeers to misrepresent it.

 

[William Stratford]

The Graun lost me when they started up with articles on men's fashion featuring GBP700 jeans.... I'm sure it does vary between areas... I've just never found it as bad in the vast majority of places as somm seem to think. I live in inner East London, though. [huh]

It depends greatly on where you go. For example Newquay, Plymouth, Bristol, Sheffield, Manchester, Nottingham are all "wretched hives of scum and villainy" of a friday or saturday night...best avoided by anyone but their ilk. Whilst Penzance, Truro, Winchester and Lincoln I've never had any trouble in at all. Last years riots were no surprise to me whatsoever - there is a growing undercurrent in this land that is filling our towns with poison (and I have to say that rural places tend to be insular and suspicious but once they get to know you are more welcoming than any city I've visited or lived in).

So no, the Daily Wail is not my source of information on this matter (although Quentin Letts and Peter Hitchens are surprisingly good journalists to be found in its fold...). Instead its down to a couple of decades of (rather bitter) experience, both of myself and of friends and family working as social workers/police officers/teachers who are left picking up the pieces of 50 years of "do your own thang".

 

[Edward]

You've really met such a person? Really?

I'd be interested to know which Bishop's funeral he and his followers were picketing?

Heh... Phelps probably wasn't the obvious comparison, so.... substitute whichever name is most appropriate... basic point was neither the faith community nor the non-faith community has a monopoly on self-righteous idiots who seem to need to push their views on everyone else, particularly those who disagree. I guess it's human insecurity?

It depends greatly on where you go. For example Newquay, Plymouth, Bristol, Sheffield, Manchester, Nottingham are all "wretched hives of scum and villainy" of a friday or saturday night...best avoided by anyone but their ilk. Whilst Penzance, Truro, Winchester and Lincoln I've never had any trouble in at all. Last years riots were no surprise to me whatsoever - there is a growing undercurrent in this land that is filling our towns with poison (and I have to say that rural places tend to be insular and suspicious but once they get to know you are more welcoming than any city I've visited or lived in).

So no, the Daily Wail is not my source of information on this matter (although Quentin Letts and Peter Hitchens are surprisingly good journalists to be found in its fold...). Instead its down to a couple of decades of (rather bitter) experience, both of myself and of friends and family working as social workers/police officers/teachers who are left picking up the pieces of 50 years of "do your own thang".

I guess it does vary with location.... I always enjoyed Manchester. The only place I've ever had any serious hassle was Liverpool - a few of us got physically shoved around for "looking weird". Coins thrown at us in broad daylight too.

 

[Flicka]

Today's society is considerably more peaceful than 150 or 200 uears ago. There's a rather interesting graph a professor showed us during a lecture, displaying cases of assault with a deadly outcome in Sweden per 1,000 people since the 16th century up until the 90s. It sloped drastically downwards and the upsurge since the overall low in the 50s was so slight it was barely noticeable. I was surprised by that, but then the curve showing our alcohol consumption would probably look the same. Binge drinking is a fine old tradition in Sweden, but 150 years ago, we drank constantly as well (I mean in between binges). You know the old slogan of the 18th century gin craze in London, right? 'Drunk for a penny, dead drunk for tuppence'.

I just hope that in 200 years more, we won't have inverted that curve!

 

[Angus Forbes]

Once I asked a Swedish friend of mine if he had any personal experience with crime. He thought for a while, and finally said that he knew someone who kept a book overdue from a public library. I then asked him how Sweden had become so civilized in comparison with my own country (USA), and he answered honestly by saying something along the lines of "we weren't always this way -- remember the Vikings?"

 

[LizzieMaine]

Around here there's substantially more violent, drug-related crime than there was when I was growing up. I had a meth lab raided two houses up from me last winter, one of my neighbors was dealing heroin and ended up in a body bag, there's a home-invasion rapist currently at large in the area who assaulted a 62-year-old woman in broad daylight in her own house, and the drug stores around the area get robbed regularly by pimply-faced oxycontin addicts with guns, knives, and in one recent case, a samurai sword.

None of this might seem like much to you jaded urban types -- but in small towns, it's something extremely disturbing. There was crime before, but not like this, not in my lifetime anyway. All you city types are seeing your crime rates go down because all the punks and thugs are coming up here where the pickins are easier.

 

[AmateisGal]

Around here there's substantially more violent, drug-related crime than there was when I was growing up. I had a meth lab raided two houses up from me last winter, one of my neighbors was dealing heroin and ended up in a body bag, there's a home-invasion rapist currently at large in the area who assaulted a 62-year-old woman in broad daylight in her own house, and the drug stores around the area get robbed regularly by pimply-faced oxycontin addicts with guns, knives, and in one recent case, a samurai sword.

None of this might seem like much to you jaded urban types -- but in small towns, it's something extremely disturbing. There was crime before, but not like this, not in my lifetime anyway. All you city types are seeing your crime rates go down because all the punks and thugs are coming up here where the pickins are easier.

Wow, Lizzie! Stay safe.

 

[AmateisGal]

I do know that the biggest town (population around 15, 000) near where I grew up has seen a huge influx of drug-related crime in the last ten years. They've had more murders there than where I live (a city of nearly 260,000). And this is Nebraska, a place that is largely ignored and/or thought of as being out in the middle of nowhere and thus relatively safe.

 

[Feraud]

You all had better get moving to the cities where you can raise a decent family.

 

[Flicka]

Once I asked a Swedish friend of mine if he had any personal experience with crime. He thought for a while, and finally said that he knew someone who kept a book overdue from a public library. I then asked him how Sweden had become so civilized in comparison with my own country (USA), and he answered honestly by saying something along the lines of "we weren't always this way -- remember the Vikings?"

As someone who worked in a criminal court, I can only say that I wish his experience was typical. Drugs, rape, murder, domestic abuse... We had it all. Admittedly, where I worked is one of the, if not the, worst district in Sweden but still... It doesn't sound like where I live either.

But we're very uptight. I would even use the expression 'passive-aggressive'.

 

[scottyrocks]

Around here there's substantially more violent, drug-related crime than there was when I was growing up. I had a meth lab raided two houses up from me last winter, one of my neighbors was dealing heroin and ended up in a body bag, there's a home-invasion rapist currently at large in the area who assaulted a 62-year-old woman in broad daylight in her own house, and the drug stores around the area get robbed regularly by pimply-faced oxycontin addicts with guns, knives, and in one recent case, a samurai sword.

None of this might seem like much to you jaded urban types -- but in small towns, it's something extremely disturbing. There was crime before, but not like this, not in my lifetime anyway. All you city types are seeing your crime rates go down because all the punks and thugs are coming up here where the pickins are easier.

I am kind of surprised at this. Around here, the only ones who carry guns are cops and criminals. In other parts of the country, there are others. Imho, there's no better deterent than not knowing whom around you is packing.

 

[Angus Forbes]

Flicka - thanks for your response -- it's good to get a different perspective.

 

[John in Covina]

It seems surprising that there is so much drug making and dealing in the rural and small town areas.
However I have heard some interesting interviews where people like to have isolated rural properties to do meth cooking and other activities.
As to use and dealing a lot of kids are simply saying that small town life is too boring so they engage in drug use to spice up their lives.

 

[John in Covina]

As to religion - Christianity's difficulties lie with the nature of so many different denominations but their actions are all lumped together.
It is not supposed to be an in your face type of thing.
One may share their faith but it needs to be more of a "Oh by the way I am a Christian and if you ever have any questions feel free to ask" type of thing. I have seen a lot of in your face stuff going both ways.

 

[LizzieMaine]

A lot of our drug dealing comes out of the death throes of the fishing industry. With working fishermen having had their legs cut out from under them by overfishing and globalization, and huge debts to pay off on their boats, it's very tempting to make a run down to New Bedford to pick up a little package for someone. If Joe Lobsterman suddenly pays off his boat and retires, everybody knows what business he's gone into.

The death of the manufacturing economy has left a lot of people around here in a state of utter hopelessness. People who expected to spend their working lives in the canneries or making shoes were left high and dry when local industry was eviscerated in the 80s and 90s, and there's no way these people are going to become white-collar office drones like everyone's supposed to in the 21st Century. But there's little else available for them -- they're even less likely to open art galleries -- and as they say, the Devil finds work for idle hands...

 

[John in Covina]

The death of the manufacturing economy has left a lot of people around here in a state of utter hopelessness. People who expected to spend their working lives in the canneries or making shoes were left high and dry when local industry was eviscerated in the 80s and 90s, and there's no way these people are going to become white-collar office drones like everyone's supposed to in the 21st Century. But there's little else available for them -- they're even less likely to open art galleries -- and as they say, the Devil finds work for idle hands...

We're all supposed to be in a service economy now - Would you like fries with that?

 

[jamespowers]

Around here there's substantially more violent, drug-related crime than there was when I was growing up. I had a meth lab raided two houses up from me last winter, one of my neighbors was dealing heroin and ended up in a body bag, there's a home-invasion rapist currently at large in the area who assaulted a 62-year-old woman in broad daylight in her own house, and the drug stores around the area get robbed regularly by pimply-faced oxycontin addicts with guns, knives, and in one recent case, a samurai sword.

None of this might seem like much to you jaded urban types -- but in small towns, it's something extremely disturbing. There was crime before, but not like this, not in my lifetime anyway. All you city types are seeing your crime rates go down because all the punks and thugs are coming up here where the pickins are easier.

And here we have several examples of the title of this thread.

 

[Atticus Finch]

We don't have to speculate or rely on antidotal evidence when we are discussing crime rates in the US. The internet is full of information about this subject. The rates of most kinds of crimes have greatly increased (per 100,000 persons) since the fifties and sixties when I was a child. But they have also generally decreased from their levels thirty years ago.

Beware of the information in the following link, though. It is raw data. It doesn't account for differing reporting rates observed throughout the fifty years covered. For example, forcible rape was very under reported in 1960 as compared to today. Another problem of underreporting exists in juvenile crime. In 1960 many youthful offenders were not charged or prosecuted. Nowadays, if a kid gets into a schoolyard fight, the school Resource Officer swears out assault warrants on everyone involved and they all end up adding to the US violent crime numbers.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

AF