The Ernest Hemingway Thread

[camjr]

Good point.
But Papa's character Francis Macomber's short happy life ended with a bullet going inside his head.
So, Hemingway's world really got inside the heads of his characters.

Topping!

 

[Tiki Tom]

Am rereading “The Sun Also Rises” now. Perhaps I’m shallow... am not focusing on “was Hem anti-Semitic?” Or “was Hem a misogynist?” Or “does Jake Barnes hint at androgynous tendencies?” Or is the book a “statement about lost generation nihilism?” No. I’m thinking “damn, those expats in the 1920s drank like Vikings!”

 

[belfastboy]

Am rereading “The Sun Also Rises” now. Perhaps I’m shallow... am not focusing on “was Hem anti-Semitic?” Or “was Hem a misogynist?” Or “does Jake Barnes hint at androgynous tendencies?” Or is the book a “statement about lost generation nihilism?” No. I’m thinking “damn, those expats in the 1920s drank like Vikings!”

Ken Burns has a new documentary of Papa. It pulls no punches as it would seem he was not a good man.....used and abused his friends, abusive including physical abuse of the women in his life. As they say...."It was a good thing he could write." But as someone who worshipped him and read everything of his some 50 years ago my attempts to revisit his writings have not been a great experience. Not a great writer in my estimation.....his work has not stood up well at all.

 

[Harp]

Not a great writer in my estimation.....his work has not stood up well at all.

When I was in college, I lived in Hemingway's old Oak Park neighborhood. Strolled past his childhood
house, and his high school, Oak Park-River Forest was right down the street. I recall he reflected on his
writing style and said that he learned to write a simple declarative sentence at OP-RF High. An enigma
in so many ways, I have always found him grammatically likened to a simple declarative sentence.
Complicated, but like all men are, a sensualist who pursued Eros, and, when his age caught up to him
he collapsed within himself; ultimately a depressive who ended life with a shotgun. A simple declarative
sentence who could write and for a brief moment in time owned literary renown.

Hemingway pushed the proverbial envelope, lived life large, abused and used. A clay foundation,
no more no less, availed his time and circumstances. Took to Spain and France later for the opportunity,
his cause, himself. The Sun Also Rises I believe is his finest work. A wounded veteran of First World War
trench combat, impotent, but trying to live a rewarding solitaire existence. There is some wisdom
strewn about Papa's canon, wheat shaken from chaff perhaps.

 

[Tiki Tom]

Awww, Papa. Yes, it’s all true. He was a man of his times... like most of that generation (including my own father), he would FAIL today’s tests of enlightened behavior. No doubt about that. His drinking, alone, would be frowned upon by modern neo-prohibitionists.

On the other hand, he had some things in the “plus” column. His heroics in WWI gained him a legitimate medal (although, yes, the exploits were later exaggerated.) He was at the very head of anti-fascism: he truly believed in the loyalist cause in Spain in the 1930s —-before it was popular—- and donated time, money, and ink to the cause. He also went on dangerous missions behind enemy lines for the loyalists. Years later in Cuba, he more or less supported down-and-out exiled Spanish loyalists who had escaped Franco’s grasp. He famously said that he would not go back to Spain, his favorite country, while any of his friends were in prison. While in Cuba he also paid for a Cuban little league team (buying uniforms, etc). The number of young writers that he befriended and mentored is not inconsiderable. In the 50s, one of his best friends —- and one of those young writers—- was A. E. Hotchner, who happened to be a Jew, perhaps contradicting the famous accusation. Hemingway was THERE at D-Day. He did indeed lead a bunch of French Resistance fighters into Paris. In the bloody battles of the Huertgen Forest, U.S. General Lanham praised Hem’s bravery and knowledge of military matters. Married four times, there were in fact women who loved him ...Marlene Dietrich maintained a lifelong friendship with him and praised his thoughtfulness. Until his end, he was on friendly terms with his first wife and true love. He befriended prostitutes and movie stars (paying for the funeral of at least one hooker). He held big game fishing world records.

A remarkable life by any standard. And that’s not even mentioning that he profoundly revolutionized English prose writing and won the Nobel Prize for literature. Even today, some of his books are legitimately termed “classics”. The opening paragraph of “A Farewell to Arms” is routinely pointed at as being a classic in itself.

Could he sometimes be a son-of-a-barnacle? No doubt. He got into stupid fist fights all too often. He and his last wife, Mary, had epic OTT fights that would be outrageous in modern times. He held grudges against those who criticized his writing or his lifestyle. He was one of those guys who, if you were on his good side, he was the best friend ever... yet, if you fell out of grace, there was hell to pay. I don’t know. He was a very, very complicated man.

Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[belfastboy]

Awww, Papa. Yes, it’s all true. He was a man of his times... like most of that generation (including my own father), he would FAIL today’s tests of enlightened behavior. No doubt about that. His drinking, alone, would be frowned upon by modern neo-prohibitionists.

On the other hand, he had —-at the same time—- some things in the “plus” column. His heroics in WWI gained him a legitimate medal (although, yes, the exploits were later exaggerated.) He was at the very head of anti-fascism: he truly believed in the loyalist cause in Spain —-before it was popular—- and donated time, money, and ink to the cause. He also went behind enemy lines for the loyalists. Years later in Cuba, he more or less supported down-and-out exiled Spanish loyalists who had escaped Franco’s grasp. He famously said that he would not go back to Spain, his favorite country, while any of his friends were in prison. While in Cuba he also paid for a Cuban little league team (buying uniforms, etc). The number of young writers that he befriended and mentored is not inconsiderable. In the 50s, one of his best friends was A. E. Hotchner, who happened to be a Jew, perhaps contradicting the famous accusation. Hemingway was THERE at D-Day. He did indeed lead a bunch of French Resistance fighters into Paris. In the bloody battles of the Huertgen Forest, U.S. General Lanham praised Hem’s bravery and knowledge of military matters. Married four times, there were in fact women who loved him ...Marlene Dietrich maintained a lifelong friendship with him and praised his thoughtfulness. Until his end, he was on friendly terms with his first wife and true love. He befriended prostitutes and movie stars (paying for the funeral of at least one hooker). He held big game fishing world records.

A remarkable life by any standard. And that’s not even mentioning that he profoundly revolutionized English prose writing and won the Nobel Prize for literature. Even today, some of his books are legitimately termed “classics”. The opening paragraph of “A Farewell to Arms” is routinely pointed at as being a classic in itself.

Could he sometimes be a son-of-a-barnacle? No doubt. He got into stupid fist fights all too often. He and his last wife, Mary, had epic OTT fights that would be outrageous in modern times. He held grudges against those who criticized his writing or his lifestyle. He was one of those guys who, if you were on his good side, he was the best friend ever... yet, if you fell out of grace, there was hell to pay. I don’t know. He was a very, very complicated man. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water.

And I still think him a highly over rated writer. He did have some moments but much of his work is unreadable today...or at least grimace producing. I shall watch Burns doc for certain
.

 

[Tiki Tom]

The stories that can be told about Hemingway are endless. Here is another one that I haven’t heard before. Like a lot of Hemingway stories, there is some debate about how true it is. Nonetheless, it’s a fun story.

https://www.theartnewspaper.com/202...sso-a-podcast-investigation-hopes-to-find-out

 

[Tiki Tom]

One more. This time the tale is about Hemingway and his gal pal, Ava Gardner. What the article doesn’t mention is how they first met in person. Gardner was in a hospital in Spain. Her current boy toy (she was still married to Frank Sinatra) was a famous Spanish Bullfighter who was a friend of Hems. When said bullfighter went to the hospital to visit his girlfriend, he brought the American writer along. When Hemingway walked in the door, Ava was on the phone with her agent, screaming a long stream of unprintable obscenities at the agent. Finally she slammed down the receiver. Hemingway’s first words to her were: “Damn. It’s a good thing the nuns who run this hospital don’t speak English!” As the story goes, that was the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/finca-vigia-ernest-hemingway-ava-gardner-cuba/

 

[belfastboy]

One more. This time the tale is about Hemingway and his gal pal, Ava Gardner. What the article doesn’t mention is how they first met in person. Gardner was in a hospital in Spain. Her current boy toy (she was still married to Frank Sinatra) was a famous Spanish Bullfighter who was a friend of Hems. When said bullfighter went to the hospital to visit his girlfriend, he brought the American writer along. When Hemingway walked in the door, Ava was on the phone with her agent, screaming a long stream of unprintable obscenities at the agent. Finally she slammed down the receiver. Hemingway’s first words to her were: “Damn. It’s a good thing the nuns who run this hospital don’t speak English!” As the story goes, that was the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/finca-vigia-ernest-hemingway-ava-gardner-cuba/

We toured the Finca in 2006 and it was a wonderful day. It was set up in Cuban fashion....that is no fanfare, rundown, and a touch shabby. It was easy to immerse in the place and easy to imagine that Hem was just gone to Havana for the day. The swimming pool was empty. But his boat Pilar was in good shape. I understand it has had an extensive refurbishment and I hope in the doing it didn't lose that shabby chic, authentic vibe.

 

[Cornelius]

The stories that can be told about Hemingway are endless. Here is another one that I haven’t heard before. Like a lot of Hemingway stories, there is some debate about how true it is. Nonetheless, it’s a fun story.

https://www.theartnewspaper.com/202...sso-a-podcast-investigation-hopes-to-find-out

I haven't tuned into this podcast yet but should. I worked in the logistics end of the international high-end art world for some years. The funny thing about Picasso which no auction house wants the world to know is that he was insanely prolific. A man who lived and breathed art, and a true genius, to be sure; but to have something "by Picasso" is not necessarily very rare, in the Capitalist value sense - there are literally tens of thousands of his drawings, paintings, sculptures, plates, tiles, cups... I mean, the man used to pay bar & restaurant tabs with a sketch. That piles up fast.

Six or seven years ago, Picasso's granddaughter Marina - who inherited the lion's share of his estate - was threatening to dump her own collection of his work en masse onto the international art market. We're talking something like 10,000 pieces in all mediums, no joke (to say nothing of his tools, clothing, books, furniture, & personal effects).

In proposing this giant sale Marina Picasso had been hoping, as she looked ahead to her final decade or two of life, to be able to ensure that her favorite charities would be funded with the proceeds in exactly the way she desired; Sotheby's, et al. nearly had a heart attack trying to talk her down, desperate to preserve artificial scarcity & thus auction value & thus their own profit potential.

Low & behold, there's now been a steady series of selective "exclusive" auctions of Marina's trove spaced out over the past few years...


I can't even count how many Picasso ceramics I personally handled in the course of my former work. Mostly plates. So many plates. It's cool at first then gets boring; they begin to seem as though created for quick cash. He & his studio workers probably made thousands of plates & tiles. Point being that the presentation of this story suggests it would be actually a bit ridiculous for a PICASSO! ceramic to end up in Cuba and then Florida, among the in/famous & wealthy, because Picasso's, like, a real artist, blah-blah-blah, so doesn't this tale sound suspect?

Whereas in reality, it's like, Dude, I'm sure there are a hundred Picasso ceramics around the Caribbean basin in 2022. Easily. Because the man basically made his own currency. Hell, I could point you to a few dozen Picasso ceramics to be found among the homes of just one residential block in Chicago, Illinois USA. And that's in "Flyover Country." But Picasso ceramics are anywhere money is to be found, because every poorly-educated rich dupe wants to Buy a Picasso and has no idea as to just how Common it is in the eye of a dealer vending from quite deep stock.

Picasso was the old guard of the Parisian expats by the time Hemingway arrived after WWI, but if the two ever had any rapport, I could completely believe Pablo giving Ernest some ceramics he'd made, especially given their mutual love of Spain & hatred of Fascism. Anyway, I'll give the podcast a go, thanks again for the recommendation, forgot to listen after initially seeing your post.

 

[Tiki Tom]

I haven't tuned into this podcast yet but should. I worked in the logistics end of the international high-end art world for some years. The funny thing about Picasso which no auction house wants the world to know is that he was insanely prolific. A man who lived and breathed art, and a true genius, to be sure; but to have something "by Picasso" is not necessarily very rare, in the Capitalist value sense - there are literally tens of thousands of his drawings, paintings, sculptures, plates, tiles, cups... I mean, the man used to pay bar & restaurant tabs with a sketch. That piles up fast.

Six or seven years ago, Picasso's granddaughter Marina - who inherited the lion's share of his estate - was threatening to dump her own collection of his work en masse onto the international art market. We're talking something like 10,000 pieces in all mediums, no joke (to say nothing of his tools, clothing, books, furniture, & personal effects).

In proposing this giant sale Marina Picasso had been hoping, as she looked ahead to her final decade or two of life, to be able to ensure that her favorite charities would be funded with the proceeds in exactly the way she desired; Sotheby's, et al. nearly had a heart attack trying to talk her down, desperate to preserve artificial scarcity & thus auction value & thus their own profit potential.

Low & behold, there's now been a steady series of selective "exclusive" auctions of Marina's trove spaced out over the past few years...


I can't even count how many Picasso ceramics I personally handled in the course of my former work. Mostly plates. So many plates. It's cool at first then gets boring; they begin to seem as though created for quick cash. He & his studio workers probably made thousands of plates & tiles. Point being that the presentation of this story suggests it would be actually a bit ridiculous for a PICASSO! ceramic to end up in Cuba and then Florida, among the in/famous & wealthy, because Picasso's, like, a real artist, blah-blah-blah, so doesn't this tale sound suspect?

Whereas in reality, it's like, Dude, I'm sure there are a hundred Picasso ceramics around the Caribbean basin in 2022. Easily. Because the man basically made his own currency. Hell, I could point you to a few dozen Picasso ceramics to be found among the homes of just one residential block in Chicago, Illinois USA. And that's in "Flyover Country." But Picasso ceramics are anywhere money is to be found, because every poorly-educated rich dupe wants to Buy a Picasso and has no idea as to just how Common it is in the eye of a dealer vending from quite deep stock.

Picasso was the old guard of the Parisian expats by the time Hemingway arrived after WWI, but if the two ever had any rapport, I could completely believe Pablo giving Ernest some ceramics he'd made, especially given their mutual love of Spain & hatred of Fascism. Anyway, I'll give the podcast a go, thanks again for the recommendation, forgot to listen after initially seeing your post.

Awesome post. Thank you!

 

[Harp]

Ava more or less probably notched her lipstick case at Hemingway's crash pad.
She was easy, slept around, swam nude at midnite with Ernest who kept himself tethered
in youth so his concern for middle age climax could be realized. A not so simple declarative sentence,
grammatically speaking of course.

 

[Tiki Tom]

Being a Hemingway descendant is a career path in its own right. I’ve lost track/count of them.

https://www.mlive.com/news/2022/01/...ad-northern-michigan-retreat-for-writers.html

 

[Harp]

Being a Hemingway descendant is a career path in its own right. I’ve lost track/count of them.

James Jones' kids-both adopted, sponge his estate, which includes From Here To Eternity-
book and film, flyleaf copyright cite, as well as a gin play regarding certain homosexual paragraphs
initially deleted upon first run publication. Jones recounted how Schofield Barracks garrison supplemented
GI pay with Honolulu homosexuals by allowing themselves to be occasionally serviced. The deleted paragraphs
were inserted for renewed print runs to great fanfare-supposedly. I dimly recall attempting to convince
a fellow lounger inside The Reading forum thread that Jones' classic was a poorly structured first novel,
hadn't been properly edited, and the new addition really added nothing substantive to the book.

Harper Lee, author of acclaimed To Kill A Mockingbird had rewritten a first draft under editorial
direction, producing an entirely new draft with a revised lead protagonist, Atticus Finch.
The first rejected draft was found several years ago and published as Go Set A Watchman-an obvious
estate gin play by either estate executor or executrix since Lee herself was suffering dementia
inside a nursing home. But supposedly gave the distaff draft her complete full support.
Lee had endured Academe wrath similiar to Flaubert for daring to write an admirable male lead,
immortalized by actor Gregory Peck in the film version of her book. Intolerant Academe is far more
amusing than instructive.

 

[Fading Fast]

My memory goes back to when the book came out, so several years ago and, hence, not perfect, but I thought "Go Set a Watchman" was an interesting addition to "To Kill a Mockingbird."

It's all fiction, so if you only want the Atticus Finch of TKAM, then he will always be there for you inside its pages. But if you wanted to see more, or if you prefer, a version of him other than what was revealed in TKAM, the GSAW version is now there too.

I was initially amazed at the blowback to GSAW, but then realized that many people didn't like seeing a nearly perfect hero - the Atticus Finch of TKAM - made less of hero, even if more of a real-life southern man of that time, in another book.

 

[Harp]

My memory goes back to when the book came out, so several years ago and, hence, not perfect, but I thought "Go Set a Watchman" was an interesting addition to "To Kill a Mockingbird."

It's all fiction, so if you only want the Atticus Finch of TKAM, then he will always be there for you inside its pages. But if you wanted to see more, or if you prefer, a version of him other than what was revealed in TKAM, the GSAW version is now there too.

I was initially amazed at the blowback to GSAW, but then realized that many people didn't like seeing a nearly perfect hero - the Atticus Finch of TKAM - made less of hero, even if more of a real-life southern man of that time, in another book.

In the interest of literary probity and adherence to earlier editorial manuscript rejection, the two pieces
are not cojoined twins but separate manuscripts writ apart, with the latter quickened published decades
later without any authorization from Harper Lee who suffered dementia prior to her death in 2016,
following Go Set A Watchman release the previous year. Had Ms Lee desired a continuance to her
classic To Kill A Mockingbird with/without any revision she never evidenced any inclination to do so.
Second, Academe resentment over Lee in the form addressed to Flaubert frankly cheapens this
estate gin further. Third, legal ethics were skirted by Lee's executor/executrix.

The cumulative in this instance advised letting best left alone instead of rationalizing a complete
revised protagonist which substantially mars established character issues essential to the second draft,
amounting to fraudulent intent for financial gain.

 

[Fading Fast]

In the interest of literary probity and adherence to earlier editorial manuscript rejection, the two pieces
are not cojoined twins but separate manuscripts writ apart, with the latter quickened published decades
later without any authorization from Harper Lee who suffered dementia prior to her death in 2016,
following Go Set A Watchman release the previous year. Had Ms Lee desired a continuance to her
classic To Kill A Mockingbird with/without any revision she never evidenced any inclination to do so.
Second, Academe resentment over Lee in the form addressed to Flaubert frankly cheapens this
estate gin further. Third, legal ethics were skirted by Lee's executor/executrix.

The cumulative in this instance advised letting best left alone instead of rationalizing a complete
revised protagonist which substantially mars established character issues essential to the second draft,
amounting to fraudulent intent for financial gain.

As to the legal machinations, the counter to all your points is it was legally published and released.

Ignore GSAW if you don't like it, but it is now out there and I found it interesting.

I loved TKAM and I love AF the hero from that book. I also believe he is a more real living breathing human in GSAW.

Since they are both out there, academia could simply study them as two versions of an author's ideas - it's a pretty neat look at the creative process. It is quite right to note that, at least initially and for many years, Lee only wanted the TKAM released.

 

[Harp]

As to the legal machinations, the counter to all your points is it was legally published and released.

It is quite right to note that, at least initially and for many years, Lee only wanted the TKAM released.

As I mentioned earlier, the estate exs skirted ethical considerations within legal allowance as to position,
Harper Lee being ill and unable to object artistic trespass; so Watchman is legally published,
however said objection remains.

To best knowledge, Lee never had any desire or interest in publishing her first-born child,
which substantially differs or even warps character of Atticus Finch. To the extent of inherent intellectual
property legal, ethical, and most certain artistic moral privilege, my position is that Lee estate exs traversed stricture.

 

[Fading Fast]

As I mentioned earlier, the estate exs skirted ethical considerations within legal allowance as to position,
Harper Lee being ill and unable to object artistic trespass; so Watchman is legally published,
however said objection remains.

To best knowledge, Lee never had any desire or interest in publishing her first-born child,
which substantially differs or even warps character of Atticus Finch. To the extent of inherent intellectual
property legal, ethical, and most certain artistic moral privilege, my position is that Lee estate exs traversed stricture.

My guess is your assessment is correct, but as a senior lawyer told me once, it's legal if it's been ruled legal and until and if another court rules it illegal.

 

[Harp]

My guess is your assessment is correct, but as a senior lawyer told me once, it's legal if it's been ruled legal and until and if another court rules it illegal.

I so enjoy a fine point to swipe my polish rag across latitudinal lines with a sextant of such literary renown,
TKAM; until boilerplate glistens and sparkles.

The gist of it is no law was broken; merely underlying ethics, due consider within proper context
when an incapacitated author principal has dementia and is unable to speak for herself.
If Harper Lee wished to publish GSAW she could have done so during the fifty years preceding her
illness. However, she chose not to. The estate ginned the account for profit, that's all the boiled
down to the brass tacks of it is; which traverse ethical bounds inherent within estate trusteeship.