Want to buy or sell something? Check the classifieds
  • The Fedora Lounge is supported in part by commission earning affiliate links sitewide. Please support us by using them. You may learn more here.

The End of Bond? A long post on Spectre.

MikeKardec

One Too Many
Messages
1,157
Location
Los Angeles
It seems we are at the end of a run. What follows is my opinion only (as if it could be anything else!).

This film: Nice pieces but they don't fit together all that well. On the up side, many threads from the beginning of the Craig Bonds are looped through this story in order to tie it up like the end of a TV series. Seeing the other films again wouldn't hurt your appreciation of this one. More than any other Bond film this is a direct continuation of the previous ones and it refers to most of them. I doubt that it is, but it could easily function as the last Bond film.

The Series: I've watched the reboot of the Bond films with a great deal of enthusiasm. They've been a breath of fresh air and one of the smartest franchise updates in existence. They have also been predictable in the best of ways: I like to think that there are intelligent people out there in movieland and though I'm often proved wrong, the Daniel Craig Bond films are wonderful evidence that good film makers will eventually make the right decisions.

I'll set the oddball versions aside, like the G-Man version of Bond, and the Peter Sellers, David Niven, Woody Allen, Casino Royale ... though Niven seems like the one guy who ought to have had more of an opportunity to play Bond (or M) because he was probably personally closest to what you'd like Bond's background to have been, a man of many faces, a clandestine war hero, and certainly the suavest of the bunch (only my opinion, I'm a Niven fan).

Initially, the Bond films were moderate budget escapist fare that didn't take themselves too seriously and while that was fun throughout Connery's run it led to a growing number of problems in the Moore though Brosnan versions. The biggest of these issues were that the character became slicker and slicker, the tongue in cheek aspect went from amusing to something the films were gagging on, and the stakes inflated to the point where Bond had to save the entire world from total annihilation Every Single Time. To exaggerate: you had a cartoon, who was sort of winking at the audience, doing something utterly predictable and so huge that it lost all perspective ... each choice was entertaining once, together they were deadly when repeated. When repeated in the same film, devastating.

In particular, stakes inflation is always a huge mistake. I was told this by a top director: "if it's written well, a trip to the supermarket can change your hero's life." Truer words never said. You don't need and are probably better off without a burning building or terrorists.

in the Bond films I guess the idea was that we were supposed to care more because the world was at risk but that's a big vague idea. Mankind never really believed that we were all going to die during the real cold war so it was sort of foolish to try to rely on that fear to power more than one movie. When the characters you are following in that sort of film are more like caricatures it just means that a true connection was impossible. I've worked in film and publishing making big decisions about long term storytelling and it's my opinion that the Bond series is absolutely amazing in that it didn't implode immediately because of these problems ... it's a true testimony to the power of the franchise that it survived itself.

So something had to change. I know for a fact that the state of Bond haunted Pierce Brosnan. Back in the '90s I sat beside him at a premiere of Three Penny Opera on Broadway and was allowed into a conversation he was having with someone else (Me, young, lips zipped, amazed to be privy to this inner world. Them, trusting ... it was a mostly invitation only premiere, I had to be "someone" or I wouldn't have been there.). Anyway, it seemed he had been pushing to do a more realistic Bond because, of course, that's what a good actor would want. But he was not getting anywhere. I fear this is not surprising, to make a change they would have to switch actors and he fit too well in the "slick Bond" mold.

I suspect that Moore had thoughts along these lines too but I have a feeling that he was such an easy going guy that he may never have voiced them. An old school actor, the director tells me where to stand and I know my lines, no muss no fuss.

Enter Daniel Craig, new Bond and, more importantly, new goals for the writers of Bond. This iteration is the best (so far) Bond for the modern world. A rougher, tougher, less sure of himself (and therefore more engaging), less able to pull it off Bond. The stories got smaller, more personal to Bond and PRESTO, you (or maybe just I) cared more. He was more like a real person, not always the smartest, strongest, best prepared of secret agents. For the first time you felt he had a deep well of emotion, all very repressed, that he was working from ... when he succeeded against all odds it was because he had the power that gave him. The strength of Daniel Craig's bond was that he Just Kept Coming. This interpretation embodies what Bond, after all these years, has become as a concept.

And that's where things get really interesting for me: Bond is the franchise that Just Keeps Coming. It's a creaking, ancient, phantom (Spectre?) of the past that still has power over us. Because I work in publishing, and work with a "franchise" and author that is actually older than Fleming/Bond, I cheer every time I see him in print or on the screen. He's the scrappy little agent from the scrappy little island who's still holding it all together. Odd that one of the last vestiges of a world dominating empire can inspire such devotion in me.

Bond is the England that Americans want to see. Our friend, the father who can still show us how to do it both as a completely unrealistic secret agent and as a country. He is the England of WWII. The decrepit empire that could, the thing that made us proud to say "we are descended from that." The universal electronic security state that is the looming menace in Spectre has very the American overtones of the NSA and Edward Snowden's warnings but it is also the reality that is England today, a scary (to an American) big government nanny state. But, here's the thing, so far the British have been up to the challenge, they have the honesty and moral fiber to make it work ... even if they've given birth to a fictional secret agent who reminds us that extraordinary individual human beings have to hold something like that together.

Bond has often the brawny soldier from the near edge of the empire, an Irishman or Scot who the more effete managerial London types are sending out into the world as cannon fodder. Though these days we are often as much the creators of Bond as the British I think that appeals to Americans, often he's more like us.

I so appreciate that this version of Bond is referred to be and shown to be a thug. Even for a spy fantasy it can't be a pretty world out there in the trenches and the people who work in it can't be pretty people. The tuxedo is just a covering for the man inside it. We pay our governments to do the dirty jobs, to take out the garbage and the people who would threaten us. We can't forget that many people wouldn't want to have some of those garbage men over for dinner. It doesn't mean they aren't necessary or appreciated.

It's been wonderful to see two striking versions of M. I almost forgot that the Judi Dench version, the "mother of Bond" and the Iron Lady of British Intelligence, was a hold over from the Brosnan years. The Craig era reboot of her character evolved that role from "stunt casting" to "essential." The Ralph Fiennes version is also nice because he's such a man of action, he may be stuck behind the padded door of that office a good deal of the time but he's not adverse to kicking some arse when the chips are down. Being slowly reintroduced to Moneypenny and a special character with a special relationship to Bond in this film was nicely and subtly done.

Lastly, kudos to Martin Campbell who kicked off this reboot with Casino Royale. I would have guessed that he'd have been left behind with Brosnan but he performed heroically at the helm of both styles of Bond film. It's amazing he got that opportunity and and it's wonderful he did such a good job.
 

AmateisGal

I'll Lock Up
Messages
6,126
Location
Nebraska
Wonderful assessment. I, too, believe Daniel Craig has been an absolute breath of fresh air to the franchise and is much, much closer to the character Fleming envisioned and created in his novels. He's actually neck and neck with Connery, IMO, and maybe even edges him out a bit.

Craig is contracted to do one more film, and I hope he does. I don't know who will be the next Bond, but they will have very large shoes to fill.
 
Messages
17,219
Location
New York City
Your comments about a trip to the supermarket changing a hero's life reminded me of Hitchcock's famous "macguffin," which is the reason (a sabotage plot, a new secret weapon's plans, catching a famous cat burglar, etc.) that causes the characters to do something, but really only exists so that we can watch characters we care about face challenges in life. I probably didn't figure out the plot of "North by Northwest" until the third time I saw it - but I didn't care why Cary Grant was in the predicament he was in (or that it was related to the Cold War), but how he responded was fascinating. So your point about Bond getting more interesting when he is a flawed but impressive human being facing a difficult but not "saving the world every second" challenge echoes Hitchcock's views - and is part of the reason the Craig Bond films are so good. (Notice how you made the smart observation and I tried to claim a bit of it for myself when all I did was echo your thought.)
 

Edward

Bartender
Messages
25,082
Location
London, UK
I hated Bond for years; for me, the franchise lost its way big time when they lost Connery. Moore was appalling, and during his run it rapidly turned into a joke of a franchise, unintentionally hilarious at times. Lazenby was instantly forgettable. I remember Dalton seeming like a breath of fresh air after Moore, but looking back at them now his films really are very weak too, and he never convinced me. Brosnan might have fared rather better had he been given better material with which to work. At least by that point the franchise was aware of its own ridiculousness, but they were floundering terribly, with a cold-war dinosaur ripped untimely from his cold war context, and didn't know what to do with him. The first Craig film was great - they'd obviously watched Bourne and learned a few things. Quantum of Solace I've tried to watch tiwe so far and still can't make head nor tail of it, but they found their feet with Skyfall. Whereas Casino Royale felt like a Bourne film with Bond in it, Skyfall had the feel of a real Bond which had the same DNA as Goldfinger, reworked for current times. It probably was the first really entertaining Bond since Goldfinger. They're certainly, finally, not afraid of making Craig as dark as he should be - and he's the first since Connery that actually convinced me he's a killer.

I'll be intrigued to see Spectre. I'm not sure how much life the franchise has left, artistically speaking, but I don't much imagine that will trouble Eon as long as the punters keep paying. Bond is, thus far, much like the Star Wars franchise at this point - a licence to print money, and the films don't really need to be all that good to sell. I hope they don't fall back into old ways post Craig, though.
 

MikeKardec

One Too Many
Messages
1,157
Location
Los Angeles
Your comments about a trip to the supermarket changing a hero's life reminded me of Hitchcock's famous "macguffin,"

The guy I heard that "Trip to the supermarket" comment from (though I may be butchering it a bit) was Edward Zwick back in the "Thirty Something" days. It really opened my eyes as a writer, though he was just saying it, not giving me advice (I've been able to be on the edges of a lot of interesting conversations!). I've tried to put it to work by creating the biggest personal stakes for characters before I get to whatever physical stakes there are.

In the recent Bond films that may have shown up in Bond's relationship with Vesper but it REALLY is there in Bond's relationship with Judi Densch's M. They have an adult mother/son relationship that accepts the bloody business they are in but still carries an unbelievably amount of love and respect. In fact the bottom line of Skyfall was about an agent who may have felt and returned that love (Javier Bardem's character) but didn't have the respect to realize the awful position she is in as his superior. His love then turned to hate. THAT'S the "trip to the supermarket" part, they can fly around the world and blow things up and leap from crumbling buildings but at the core of it it's about simple powerful human emotions. Silva felt betrayed.

M is actually the only woman Bond has ever loved ... really loved. It was wonderful that they got to go to his family home, a place where (if I've got this right) he never had a real mother like the adopted mother (M) he's trying to protect. Everything Craig's Bond has ever done has been because of this woman, even in this new movie.

I'll be intrigued to see Spectre. I'm not sure how much life the franchise has left, artistically speaking, but I don't much imagine that will trouble Eon as long as the punters keep paying. Bond is, thus far, much like the Star Wars franchise at this point - a licence to print money, and the films don't really need to be all that good to sell. I hope they don't fall back into old ways post Craig, though.

It's such a role of the dice every time you make a film, even if you have the best people. If their imaginations aren't working together, if they are not all making the same movie (and it's very hard to tell because you can't read their minds) you get mush or semi mush in the end. The director's and producer's job, more than anything else, is to keep everyone making the same film ... to be sensitive to when it starts getting off track. Knowing there is a problem and being able to fix it are two totally different things, however. It's one of the reasons that the best TV is usually better than the best features these days, you have a lot of time to see a problem and a lot of time to fix it. Also the writers have a LOT of power in TV. In features a lot of times no one really knows who has the most power (as they struggle to assert it or just come up with ideas they thing are good or necessary) until the project is almost over.

Even though they have had some stinkers, I'd argue that now the Broccoli/Wilson (half brother and sister) combo is one of the best in the business at keeping things on track. We wouldn't be 24 films and 50 years in if they hadn't been learning. I don't think we'll see Skyfall or Casino Royale every time, nobody could pull that off, but I think it's great what they've done in recent years. The best part of it is that they have been rewarded for making smarter, higher quality films. From a studio executive perspective (and they are the ones truly in charge) that was not always an obvious course of action.
 

MikeKardec

One Too Many
Messages
1,157
Location
Los Angeles
I suspect that each change in the Bond franchise seemed like a good idea at the time and fit the temperature of movie making in its era. The shifts after Connery seemed very much like "studio mentality" even including the Brosnan era "let's just keep doing it even if we don't know what IT is any longer" films. With Casino Royale you saw the maturing of the second generation Broccoli/Wilson vision and the consolidation of their power to get what they want. That doesn't mean they'll get it forever, a new studio may try to bludgeon them into submission or they could just loose their way or run out of ideas. But so far, so good.

It is worth noting that (I think I'm right) Broccoli ad Wilson are both Americans but with deep old ties to Britain ... as you can probably imagine. The Britain of a certain era gave them everything.

It seems Bond learned a lot from Indiana Jones. Jones did not really know what he was doing, he was not "in control." He was not the toughest guy on the block. He wasn't even good at improvising ... but he was committed to KEEP improvising until something worked. It's VERY entertaining but it's not that earlier generation's style of storytelling.

On a separate note, I think some of the issues with this film come because they were trying too hard to set up the next one (which, whether he will do it or not, seems to be intended to be the last of the Craig Bonds) ... whether this one tied up all the loose ends of the previous four films or not, I think they were setting up a huge conflict based on the original characters for Craig to go out on.

People endlessly speculate about the real person who inspired James Bond. It's probably useless because writers do write fiction and often need little exact inspiration but if I had to vote I'd pick Peter Fleming, Ian's big brother.
 
Last edited:

AmateisGal

I'll Lock Up
Messages
6,126
Location
Nebraska
MikeKardec, I'm really enjoying your perspective on Bond here (and geeking out a little over it as I LOVE discussions like this on Bond).

Craig brought this franchise back to life. And he did it with everyone thinking he wouldn't. I remember the uproar when he was cast. (A blonde Bond? The horror!) I didn't know who he was at the time and was quite willing to give him a chance - and I'm so glad I did. He makes Bond REAL, not a caricature. The way he plays Bond is absolutely spot on. Even when the storyline isn't as strong (Quantum comes to mind), his portrayal of Bond is so remarkable that you really don't care. And on a side note - Quantum as an action film wasn't that great, but as a character picture, it was fabulous - we got to see Bond in revenge mode for Vesper's death and saw how he coped with his grief and anger. It was a brilliant performance, IMO.

Craig has brought Bond fully alive for me in a way that hasn't been done since perhaps Connery in Dr. No and From Russia with Love.

And on a slight side note, Daniel Craig was absolutely brilliant for making this 8-yr-old boy's dream come true of meeting his Bond hero.

 
Last edited:

MikeKardec

One Too Many
Messages
1,157
Location
Los Angeles
Cute kid! Nice watch! Hope the kid doesn't fall in a lake or anything, it might take him right to the bottom. I love the part where Craig is ironing his jacket. Hysterical.

I actually got to meet Sean Connery when I was about his age. He didn't give me a watch and I didn't know who either James Bond or Sean Connery was, but he was very charismatic! I still remember that evening in greater detail than the rest of the year.

Connery was great in just about everything. I think my favorite of his films was The Wind and the Lion. All the other Bond actors (except for Craig) I've liked more in their other work. And Roger Moore get's my life long appreciation for his single brilliant scene as Inspector Clouseau! However, as Mister Cairo said, some of the winking at the audience aspect began on Connery's watch as did a good deal of the plot silliness. I actually know a couple of guys (in their 90s now) who worked on the Connery Bonds, one for MGM and the other as a Publicity man. They both admire Craig but I know that back in the day they'd have thought a humanized Bond was absolute heresy.

Most boys want to be Bond and I fear we are worried that most girls want us to be Bond too.
 
Last edited:

MikeKardec

One Too Many
Messages
1,157
Location
Los Angeles
We must also never forget that Ian Fleming wrote Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. In fact I believe it was his final novel ... that puts a WHOLE other light on the guy!
 
Last edited:

skydog757

A-List Customer
Messages
465
Location
Thumb Area, Michigan
Not many iconic characters are able to transcend the times that they are most associated with. Bond has survived numerous "updates" over the decades and seems, at this point, to be stronger than ever.
 

Edward

Bartender
Messages
25,082
Location
London, UK
Not many iconic characters are able to transcend the times that they are most associated with. Bond has survived numerous "updates" over the decades and seems, at this point, to be stronger than ever.


Certainly outside of comic-book derived superheroes, it's hard to think of anything that comes close to having so many spin-off films in terms of being a single-character based franchise.
 

Worf

I'll Lock Up
Messages
5,207
Location
Troy, New York, USA
Well now... I grew up in the spy craze of the 60's however, being poor NEVER saw a Bond film in the theatres. The first 007's I saw on the big screen were those wholly forgettable films starring Roger Snore in the 70's while stationed here and there. I felt they were awful, Marvel Comics were more believable than that drivel. I was never engaged. I've since gone back and seen just about every Bond film. I enjoyed the Connery films, even the later ones, a good bit, but was never a big fan until I saw Craig in "Casino Royale". I left the theatre thinking "whoa, so THIS is what it's supposed to be about!" Craig was the first Bond since Connery to make me feel, as I've said before, real fear. Moore, Dalton, Brosnan... I felt I could take them all in a "fair" fight. Connery and Craig in their primes... would make a grease smear out of me. Also, CR and "Skyfall" were, as far as I'm concerned, the two best Bond films ever made. In those films Bond was human, physically and emotionally vulnerable. I saw the latest and while it was enjoyable, about 20 minutes too long though, Bond was back to his old superhero ways. I never felt he was in any danger of failure or death. Still, there are only 5 or 6 other Bond films I'd rate above it. I think Bond was successfully "rebooted" and can be so again, BUT the right actor is key. As for Craig's last Bond film, I'd like to see him deal with "real life" for a while, having to come to grips with the events of the last 4 films and his current domestic situation. I still think Idris Elba would be a great Bond. Bond, 007 is like a costume sans mask that the right man, or woman, can wear and make us believe.

Worf
 
Messages
17,219
Location
New York City
In "Dr. No," Bond (Connery) kills one nasty looking spider that was crawling up his bed that had been placed there to kill him. You see terror in Bond's eyes as he contemplates how to deal with the situation and, then, when he smashes it with his shoe, he - just like I do - hits its several times after he knows it is dead "just to make sure," and there is visible relief on his face when the whole thing is over.

That's a human Bond and Connery had that in his first three outings. After that, successes spoiled Rock Hunter (oops) Bond - as the third movie, "Goldfinger," was so phenomenally successful that the pressure to make it even bigger and better led to the Bond-as-superhero thing and no Bond movie was ever really good again until Craig's "Casino Royale."

It's been discussed in this thread a few times and well said by Worf above, but for the movies to really work, to really engage you, to not just be another superhero movie, Bond needs to be three dimensional, a real person, with real flaws, worries and failures. You become engrossed in the human Bond, you identify a bit with him, then, when he overcomes something, when he succeeds despite being a bit torn and frayed along the way, it is satisfying and rewarding. I haven't seen the latest Bond, but Craig had that, to varying degree, in all his movies so far as did Connery in his first three and that is what I think makes those Bond films work the best.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
109,303
Messages
3,078,282
Members
54,244
Latest member
seeldoger47
Top