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The death of the American luxury sedan

DerMann

Practically Family
Messages
608
Location
Texas
To start this off with a bit of background information, I just bought a 1995 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham to replace my humorously bad Geo Metro.

It seems that the ever present icon of American automotive - the hulking luxury sedan - has become rarer, and in some cases, extinct.

Starting in 1993, Cadillac reworked its image of the longstanding Fleetwood. It changed from the angular body seen in models dating back to the 1970s to a more sleekly rounded, and lengthened body - truly an epitome of 1990s automobile style. If you'll note, it maintains the standard Cadillac look, huge, chrome grill, emblems proudly emblazoned across the bod, and, of course, a size unequaled by any other car on the road (largest production sedan in history).

Here's a picture of what I'm talking about:



Also, the tail lights remain in a quasi-tailfin configuartion (very slender peaking at the top), which is of course reminiscent of the behemoth tailfins of the late 1950s and early 1960s.


1959 Cadillac Brougham


1965 Fleetwood


My 1995 Fleetwood Brougham

In reality, the final generation of the Fleetwood is nothing more than an extreme streamlining of the prior generation's body:


1990 Fleetwood Brougham

What comes next is, in my book, a travesty of design and a sign of the times. In the early 21st century Cadillac began marketing the CTS, STS, etc... Most of them are fairly similar in design and form. Here's a CTS for example:



Even to the completely unaware, this looks nothing that Cadillac would ever consider incorporating into their line. The only way it resembles a Cadillac is the oversized grill - the hood ornament is flat out missing, which has proudly adorned the hood of every Cadillac for almost an entire century.

Source of the problem? Foreign luxury sedans.

Although a rare example, here's a picture of a very recent S class Mercedes Benz:


Also, a semi-concept car from BMW:


The similarities are astounding. From the boxy quasi-compact form factor to the seating arrangements and interior layout. Gone are the days of the cavernous interiors and bench seats. Dashes stuffed full of unnecessary electronics and tightly placed captain's chairs in the front with a stiff, stuffy bench in the back.

Just look at the measurements:

The final generation of the Fleetwood was a whopping 225" long and 78" wide. Cadillac's new fullsize flagship model, the DTS, is over a foot shorter at 207" and 4" narrower at 74" wide.

These cuts aren't trivial. That's space lost in the trunk and legroom in the cabin. That's fine for European cars made for European roads and drivers. All jingoism apart, Europeans don't drive in the same manner that we Americans do. Roads here are larger, people drive farther, and gas is cheaper. Sacrificing gas mileage for comfort isn't hedonism or gluttony - it's adaptation to the driving conditions of the country.

Thankfully, the Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis/Town Car is still in production, and doesn't seem to be ending any time soon. While not as extreme as the Cadillac Fleetwood, it still survives as a bastion of American luxury.

Oh, and lastly, newer cars don't come standard with ashtrays and lighters any more. This actually played a great factor in my search for a new car. I think my mom's 2002 Grand Marquis is of the last generation of cars that did. With the extreme public dislike of smokers taking control around that time, it's not surprising at all. I'm quite grateful that my Fleetwood has two ashtrays in the front and one at each door in the back, with three cigarette lighters spread throughout the car (one in the front, two in the back.

Ladies and gentlemen, we must not forget the way that we as Americans design cars. I've nothing against BMW, Mercedes, and Infinity, but I still want to be able to discern between a Cadillac and Mercedes.

*EDIT*

Forgot to say that the Fleetwood is the first car in which I can wear a fedora comfortably and drive unimpaired. I could probably pull off a top hat, haven't tried it yet, though.
 

59Lark

Practically Family
Messages
569
Location
Ontario, Canada
last of the large american cars made in Canada.

The crown vic and the mercury marquis and town car are all made less than a hour from here, in a little place called talbotville, closest real city st thomas which just lost a truck plant to mexico and they are only running one shift, the last of the rear wheel drive full frame cars. The chrysler competior hasnt a frame, recently in new york city they tried passing a bylaw or rule that taxis had to be all those half electric half gas cars and the taxis companies went wild, they all run ford crown vics, and the savings in reusing parts and the reliablity and proven techonogly was too much to loose, they fought and they won for now. I see you are from Ind, I own a car made in southbend and i can wear my fedora and drive comfortably. 59LARK:eek:fftopic:
 

scottyrocks

I'll Lock Up
Messages
9,178
Location
Isle of Langerhan, NY
Although I do love the Crown Vics, and would buy one if it met my needs, I, for one, think the CTS and their ilk are the first Caddys since the early 80s Eldorados that I would buy. I like the smaller size, and their sporting nature is nothing but a big plus for me. Monsters like that 95 deVille were a significant part of what led to the downfall of the American car industry.

Here in New York/LI, although they are certainly available, hardly anyone buys Crown Vics or Grand Marquis' anymore. All you see are 500s/Tauruses, and there are, by my own observation, about five times more of the latest Impala around (of course, Chevy makes nothing bigger). Hardly anyone misses the really big cars anymore, or least doesnt miss them enough to buy one from Ford. Maybe its different in Indiana.

Oh, and as far as wearing a fedora in a car? Its not the length of the car that determines how big a hat you can wear. I can wear my largest cowboy hats in my MINI Cooper. Its the design of the roofline.
 

Foofoogal

Banned
Messages
4,884
Location
Vintage Land
they will pry my Grand Marquis out of my hands before I buy a teeny weeny car. I think death trap when I see the tiny cars. I had a Crown Vic forever also. In Europe everyone rides tiny cars or subway. I guess this is where we are heading. If people like small cars then they should be able to buy them but totally not for me and it makes me mad I may be forced to. :rage:
touched on a nerve of mine. I am taking real good care of my car as I have no intention of not having it.
when I drive by or see a parking lot of new cars my eyes glaze over. I see nothing I want to even pull in and look at. I bet I am not the only one either. Maybe when all us old school people die they may be able to sell the cars.
IMHO the car industry took the wrong step when they started putting all their best customers into leases years ago. Up to that time it was standard to trade your car in every year or so. I told them at the time also it was nuts. Hello. In the beginning you had to have excellent credit to lease. Stupid, stupid.
 

Lincsong

I'll Lock Up
Messages
6,907
Location
Shining City on a Hill
The 4.6L on the Crown Vic/Marquis/Town Car is a beautiful engine. Those things go 150,000 miles and have little problems. I have the 5.4L on my F150 and no problems at all. Maybe I'm wrong but I think the 1995 Town Car sold more than the 1995 Fleetwood. I think many thought it to be too bulky when compared to the Town Car and the 1977-1992 Cadillacs.

GM wanted to force the front-drive DeVille's on people in 1985 but the public wouldn't have that. They wanted the rear-drive version. A nicely designed car that GM ruined for a couple years first in 1981 with the then new V-8-6-4, then in 1982 when they dropped a tiny 4.1 L V-8 which was too small for the car. I think it was 1988 or 1989 that they dropped a 5.0 L Oldsmobile V-8 under the hood and then in 1990 a 5.7L.
 

Bingles

A-List Customer
Messages
330
Location
Buffalo, New York
I lament the new look of the Cadillacs now as well. While I understand why they went smaller and sportier, they still could have made at least one car that still looked like a Cadillac. There is one model... the DTS I believe.. that is rather nice... at least the back end still looks like a Cadillac.

I myself am sticking with Buick... and my 02 LeSabre.
 

scottyrocks

I'll Lock Up
Messages
9,178
Location
Isle of Langerhan, NY
Lincsong said:
The 4.6L on the Crown Vic/Marquis/Town Car is a beautiful engine. Those things go 150,000 miles and have little problems. I have the 5.4L on my F150 and no problems at all.

I often fanatasize about getting a Crown Vic Police Interceptor. I just cant use a big car (as my only car), especially to park at work. My dad has a '96 Grand Marquis in beautiful condition, both mechanically, and cosmetically, that I'll gladly take off his hands when he buys another car.
 

DerMann

Practically Family
Messages
608
Location
Texas
Let me just say this. I'm not proposing that all Americans should drive lumbering land barges as their patriotic duty, merely suggesting that there should be large sedans available to suit the needs and desires of drivers.

Also, large cars are indubitably safer than smaller cars, and that's just a fact of physics. No matter how many air bags you stuff into a Smart Car, the end result is still this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02eghIfyHP0

I hardly have any problems with the size of the car. U-turns are difficult on certain roads, and it sticks out a good two feet in most parking spaces.
 

Viola

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,469
Location
NSW, AUS
I'm amazed there's been no luxury equivalent to the very successful PT Cruiser - no, not a sport-wagon-whatsit like the Cruiser, but a sort of loving retro ironic spin on the luxury sedan. Sure, sure, with GPS and airbags and all, but big chrome grill, some sort of fin.

Hell, a hybrid with chrome and luxury styling would sell.
 

HodgePodge

One of the Regulars
Messages
264
Location
Canada
DerMann said:
Also, large cars are indubitably safer than smaller cars, and that's just a fact of physics. No matter how many air bags you stuff into a Smart Car, the end result is still this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02eghIfyHP0

From what I saw right there, the dummies in the S-class had about as much immitation blood on them as the Smart Car dummies.

On the UK show Top Gear they crashed a Smart Car into a median barrier at highway speeds to see if it wouln't fly into a million pieces, but it didn't. It held together well, and the engine barely came into the passenger compartment. The only issue they said was that the car could withstand the force of impact and come out in roughly the same shape as it went in, but the transfer of energy ( passengers being objects in motion that want to stay in motion vs. seatbelts forcing them to stop) would likely be more force than the human body could handle.
-----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
'Bigger is safer' is just a way for people who use their Lincoln Navigator to move one person, MAYBE two, POSSIBLY a dog, and the occasional bag of groceries feel justification for the level of conspicuous consumption they are really parttaking in.
Until they can make 'green' motors that can move the mass of a bloated 'luxury' boat, the luxury car needs to die. All the time the west has spent not caring how much gas their cars guzzelled because gas was dirt cheap has gotten us to our current state, but people still insist on having their super-duty, crew-cab 350 Ford on a lift-kit with chrome runnng-boards and 20 inch rims just to haul a case of beer from the mall to the suburbs.

The vast majority of north americans don't need the size of vehicle they feel they just HAVE to have to be 'safe' and independent, and they are usually working off the notion that every new european car still meets the dimensions of a cold war Skoda or Lada, or one of those wonky Citroens with the sardine can roll-back sunroof.

Now that I've likely entirely p.o'd a very large number of people, *end rant*
 

MisterCairo

I'll Lock Up
Messages
7,005
Location
Gads Hill, Ontario
HodgePodge,
I'm currently in Ottawa, and I see a lot more Smart cars and Minis and Focuses (Focii?) than I do Ford F-350 Superduties. Come on, not everyone goes overboard.

But here's a thought. My wife and I have two daughters, 3 years old and 10 months old. Both in car seats, obviously. We have a Honda Civic. My mother lives with us.

Guess how often we get to go out together, that is, all of us, if we need to drive?

Did you guess "never"? Good! You're correct.

We are looking at a new vehicle. No, not the Smart car, that would be stupid. Fits two people, you see. Not the Mini, it's actually smaller than the Civic.

We're looking at the Buick Enclave. Big. Seats seven. Roomy. Lots of storage space. Rear doors don't merge with the rear wheel wells, so no difficulty entering the spacious back seat rows.

Great mileage? Not at all!

Would an Italian buy it? A Greek? A Spaniard? A Luxembourgian?

Nope.

Do I care?

Nope.

;-)
 

Viola

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,469
Location
NSW, AUS
I dunno, I ride in a small sedan with 4 other adults all the time. We fit. Don't need to seat 7 because there are 5 of us?

My sister has a Suburu station wagon (made in USA) that does a lot of hauling garden stuff and work tools and things from Home Depot and so on. You don't need a luxury anything for that and the Escalades and so on seem especially strange to me because its an SUV you don't want to get dirty or put anything dirty in.
 

59Lark

Practically Family
Messages
569
Location
Ontario, Canada
a perfect world

When i was young we lived on a farm and we had a buick lesabre that sat in the garage and was shiny. It was driven by my mother to go get supplies occasionally or to go to church or sunday drives. Otherwise it sat in its garage and the drive in the ditch , haul dirt or livestock auto was our truck. In a perfect world we would have two or three autos. ONE cheap on gas for running around town , one for the highways and one to haul scrap with. I have a 8 passenger van for work and hauling family, 2000 gmc safari and a 1990 buick century for running around and a 1959 studebaker for sunday drives or cruisenights. There are times that i miss the pickup, the 1969 gmac with 307 v8 and oak timbers in the box. I try to buy northamerican made vechicals because i like to keep my fellow north americans working and keep the money here on this continent. Even if i could afford a cadilac i would not buy one, the stereotype would label me and i dont wear that label well. Well this rant is over, cars are like clothes each individual has different tastes. 59Lark.:eek:fftopic:
 

davestlouis

Practically Family
Messages
805
Location
Cincinnati OH
Smaller/narrower cars make horrible funeral coaches too. When the little 85 downsized FWD Cadillacs hit, the FH where I worked bought 3 little raised roof coaches by Superior. They looked funny, they were narrow between the rear strut towers, so enhanced width caskets were a tight fit, and they just didn't hold up. Those big, RWD, mid-90s Cadillacs make beautiful coaches, the proportions are good, the hold up well, shame they don't make them anymore.

I truly wonder what the funeral and livery trade is going to do when the big sedans become extinct.
 

davestlouis

Practically Family
Messages
805
Location
Cincinnati OH
I had a 92 Buick Roadmonster for awhile, same structure as the Fleetwood, just a shorter wheelbase. I must say that the rear legroom was shameful for such a big car, not that I really care, given that I was always driving. Nice ride, decent gas mileage, easy to work on.
 

DBLIII

One of the Regulars
Messages
229
Location
Hill City, SD
Well, perhaps the big vehicles should go away since they are a symbol of "conspicuous consumption." And, I'd be really happy to throw away our Ford Excursion and get a little tiny vehicle. I'd have to throw away the Excursion because it has no value since it gets 11 miles per gallon.
Oh, but there's a couple of minor things that the tiny vehicle would have to do. Have to as in this would directly impact my wife's employment - she has her own house cleaning service.
Anyway, the tiny vehicle has to hold two vacuums, each 4 feet long, and a commercial carpet cleaner. And three good size bins of supplies.
If a big job comes up, then the trailer has to go along, so the tiny car needs to pull around 7500 pounds worth of trailer. The tiny car also has to be four wheel drive and it needs the ability to get through around a foot of water since our road floods out so much.
We had three Crown Vics, then a Roadmaster - all worked well but as my wife's business increased, so did the need for space, and hauling equipment out of the trunk gets to be a literal pain in the back.
The Excursion is finally the vehicle big enough to haul all the stuff she needs to haul. Of course, Ford no longer makes it since it was the biggest SUV and I hear that Ford got a lot of grief over that.
I guess the next round we'll have to get a couple of Police Interceptors, or maybe a Super Duty pickup and stick a cap on it. There are people who need big vehicles and a lot of space.
I miss the old Fleetwood and the Eldorado that I once had. That made a long trip convenient rather than tiring.
As all these bigger vehicles go away, those of us who need big may end up buying Kenworths and converting the back end into a box. I think in the coming years, a lot of what used to be American-size vehicles are going to go away. It is too bad that the choices of vehicles will become so limited. I suppose there's no room for individuality when we are all supposed to be conscious of our "consumption."
 

davestlouis

Practically Family
Messages
805
Location
Cincinnati OH
DBL, that's a great looking Boston on your avatar!

There are always going to be people who have a legitimate need for a large vehicle. Another thing is this...Americans keep getting fatter and fatter, and lost of people just don't fit in a tiny car. My brother in law is 6 ft 7 inches tall, and 380LBS...I had to drive him around one day in an older BMW 325 convertible with sport seats(pseudo Recaro with big side bolsters) and the only way he could get in and out was with the top down...that BMW's not a tiny car by any stretch.
 

DBLIII

One of the Regulars
Messages
229
Location
Hill City, SD
dave - that's my son Gus in the avatar. When the photo was taken, he was about 8" long. Now he's 35 pounds.....

Agreed on the other need for size, given that a lot of people are big in one way or another. I have a Ford Thunderbird, one of the newer retro ones. I have no idea how anyone over six feet tall could fit unless the top is down. I'm 5' 8" tall and there is about an inch of clearance between my head and the roof.
I just hope we continue to have a choice between big and little.
 

davestlouis

Practically Family
Messages
805
Location
Cincinnati OH
We have 3 Bostons, ranging in size from 9LBS to 41LBS...the big one looks like a little pitbull terrier. It is weird that they range so greatly in size. Sorry to hijack the thread, back to your regular programming.:eek:fftopic:
 

scottyrocks

I'll Lock Up
Messages
9,178
Location
Isle of Langerhan, NY
davestlouis said:
DBL, that's a great looking Boston on your avatar!

There are always going to be people who have a legitimate need for a large vehicle. Another thing is this...Americans keep getting fatter and fatter, and lost of people just don't fit in a tiny car. My brother in law is 6 ft 7 inches tall, and 380LBS...I had to drive him around one day in an older BMW 325 convertible with sport seats(pseudo Recaro with big side bolsters) and the only way he could get in and out was with the top down...that BMW's not a tiny car by any stretch.

And therein lies the difference. People that need a large vehicle for legitimate reasons, such as above, should be able to purchase them and not be chastised for it. Others, such as the aforementioned Escalade-to-the-store-for-a-pack-of-smokes peep is a different story, imo.
 

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