The death of the American luxury sedan

[Viola]

I try not to be one of the snotty "you don't need that" people but I admit I do it to some extent. That said, I wouldn't target the Ford Excursion... but can anyone explain the Porche/Lexus/Cadillac SUVs to me?

That said, I wish the small pickups would make a comeback in the US. I would like something El Camino sized so I could have the flat loading for garden stuff but I really don't want a Dodge Ram or something. I'm short as hell and I tried the Ram and it was too tall to get in comfortably and the bed was too high for me to load easily.

 

[Foofoogal]

I am 5'1 and used to drive my honeys Dodge Dually sometimes. It took me about 5 times around the parking lot to park the first time. Eventually I was a whiz in that thing. lol

 

[Viola]

Yeah the thing is I'd be the person who has to load it and stuff all the time and I'd rather have something low I can get in and out of without a ladder and rope and moutaineer's gear. I love to be able to pick up yardsale furniture and big potted plants and things and if I can't pick them up without calling my guy for help... I really don't need the truck at all.

And, Foofoo, you're taller than me, you leggy thing!

 

[MisterCairo]

I dunno, I ride in a small sedan with 4 other adults all the time. We fit. Don't need to seat 7 because there are 5 of us?

My sister has a Suburu station wagon (made in USA) that does a lot of hauling garden stuff and work tools and things from Home Depot and so on. You don't need a luxury anything for that and the Escalades and so on seem especially strange to me because its an SUV you don't want to get dirty or put anything dirty in.

How many of those adults do you squeeze in between two car seats? And how much do they weigh to fit within the 8 inch gap between them?

 

[Viola]

Wasn't trying to cause offense, Mister Cairo. Had no idea how big carseats we were talking about, either, as most booster seats for toddlers are pretty much just one seat big, with the bigger seats for smaller babies. Was just trying to point out you don't need a high butts-to-seats ratio necessarily.

If I said I see a lot of people (not on the board) claiming that it's just IMPOSSIBLE to have two or I've seen even one kid without necessitating a major SUV or minivan, and that this modern behavior makes me laugh, it wouldn't be intended as a slam on you or anyone in the thread.

 

[Miss Neecerie]

Funny how all this discussion about how the -design- of a larger car has turned into 'don't you dare chastise me for having one'.....which I have seen -none- of in the thread.

Oddly enough, this 'luxury sedan' being bemoaned....would solve -none- of the actual 'we need a car to hold 3 adults and two kids'...'we need to haul 2 vacuums, and assorted other stuff' things....that are the actual -requirements based- larger car needs.

Funny enough....this is why they still do make vans and trucks because they fulfill an actual -need based- slot in transportation.

A -sedan- is still primarily a passenger transport which generally fits 4-5 adults. Whether its luxury and American made or not....well clearly the market dictates what ends up staying around.....

I myself...have a station wagon...the toyota matrix...which handily is able to transport things like a small refrigerator, a tall waterfall wardrobe...and other things categorically too large to fit in that luxury sedan.

 

[Viola]

Luxury sedans have turned into luxury SUVs, that's all. In terms of actual use most Lexus/Porche/Cadillac/Lincoln SUVs see, I think the difference between them and a luxury sedan is little more than styling and height.

I rather prefer the styling of the sedans. It would solve the 3 adults, 2 kids one... just because the bench seats were wider. It certainly can't be conflated with a working truck.

 

[rmrdaddy]

Funny enough....this is why they still do make vans and trucks because they fulfill an actual -need based- slot in transportation.

A -sedan- is still primarily a passenger transport which generally fits 4-5 adults. Whether its luxury and American made or not....well clearly the market dictates what ends up staying around.....

Well said Miss Neecerie.

The irony was that for everyone that did have a big boat/camper/trailer and had a Suburban/Excursion/ Big Truck to haul it, 10 other people bought the same vehicle because A) They Could, B) it was affordale because those vehicles were incentivized to high heaven, especially though leasing programs, C) Gas was cheap.

Anyway to get back on track, American luxury sedans may have been put under Rick Moranis' machine, but the Brits still do it well, IMHO:
http://ca.autos.yahoo.com/newcars/jaguar/xj_series/2009/2678/style_overview/

 

[Diamondback]

Actually, I can see a use for the luxury sedan: ever try roadtripping with more than two or three in a compact or midsize? Yeah, the boat takes more gas, but it gives a better ride, and if you're only rolling with 4 or 5 it's more fuel-efficient than a high-drag minivan or SUV. Kinda like comparing the bouncy ride of the first experimental, bouncy lightweight railcars to the smooth ride of an Old School heavyweight Pullman with its 3'-thick steel-reinforced-concrete subfloor...

----------------
Now playing: James Hannigan, Frank Klepacki & Timothy Michael Wynn - Mykonos
via FoxyTunes

 

[Talbot]

I try not to be one of the snotty "you don't need that" people but I admit I do it to some extent. That said, I wouldn't target the Ford Excursion... but can anyone explain the Porche/Lexus/Cadillac SUVs to me?

That said, I wish the small pickups would make a comeback in the US. I would like something El Camino sized so I could have the flat loading for garden stuff but I really don't want a Dodge Ram or something. I'm short as hell and I tried the Ram and it was too tall to get in comfortably and the bed was too high for me to load easily.

I can't upload pics, but have a look at the aussie ute (short for utility).

http://www.holden.com.au/vehicles/Ute/SS-V-Series

http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/Cont...e=FOA/DFYPage/Ford-Default&site=FOA&c=DFYPage

Think modern day El Camino. Hugely popular with tradesmen, high performance packages available.

 

[Talbot]

I often fanatasize about getting a Crown Vic Police Interceptor. I just cant use a big car (as my only car), especially to park at work. My dad has a '96 Grand Marquis in beautiful condition, both mechanically, and cosmetically, that I'll gladly take off his hands when he buys another car.

A mate of mine bought 5 of these in a Police auction in Mansfield TX. He's a bit obsessive like that, but kindly lets me use one when I visit.

The bodystyle, white paint, front bumper and spotlight ensure you get real respect in traffic.

I have driven plenty of hotrods, and the interceptor rates well speed wise .

If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up (apologies to Ferris)

 

[Viola]

I can't upload pics, but have a look at the aussie ute (short for utility).

http://www.holden.com.au/vehicles/Ute/SS-V-Series

http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/Cont...e=FOA/DFYPage/Ford-Default&site=FOA&c=DFYPage

Think modern day El Camino. Hugely popular with tradesmen, high performance packages available.

I adore utes, I was eyeing the Holden avariciously when I was in Australia. Going to end up doing that after I move, but in the meantime I dunno why we don't have them here in the US.

 

[Flivver]

they will pry my Grand Marquis out of my hands before I buy a teeny weeny car. I think death trap when I see the tiny cars. I had a Crown Vic forever also.

I fully agree with you Foofoogal. My 2000 Grand Marquis has 172,000 miles on it, drives like a new car and has cost me $50 in repairs since I bought it 3 years ago at 100,000 miles. And it's economical too...28 MPG on my backroad 90 mile roundtrip commute to work...and that's with a 4.6L V8. My next vehicle will be a used Crown Vic Police Interceptor. I may lay in a supply!

Because, unfortunately the Crown Vic, Grand Marquis and Town Car will end production with the 2011 model year. Ford doesn't want to invest any more money in such a large vehicle due to the recently passed Corporate Average Fuel Economy legislation. There are some expensive FMVSS requirements due for the 2012 model year and Ford just doesn't want to make the investment in cars with a limited future.

But when these cars go away, there will be no more classic, rear-wheel-drive, body-on-frame V8 powered passenger cars left in volume production any where in the world. An era will truly have passed.

And, regarding comments about Cadillac's "Art & Science" design signature, it has worked wonders for the brand. The average age of Cadillac buyers in the 1990s was the oldest in the industry. The brand was headed for oblivion. But the new design theme brought younger (baby boomer) customers into the brand and assured its future. Like it or not, it was an absolutely necessary move for GM.

 

[Foofoogal]

http://mustang.blogsavy.com/34/ford-romeo-engine-plant-build/

The Crown Vic I had engine blew so honey put in a V8 Romeo engine and transmission out of a police cruiser. That car could get up and go when necessary. We gave it to a single mom needing a car but sort of wish we would of kept it. Moving from another state we were limited.
Still trying to figure out if government is going to penalize for having a larger car. I cannot imagine taking a 900 mile trip in a tiny car like we often do. [huh] I have to lay back in the seat with some leg room even though I am short as it hurts my back after long drive. Plus just feel safer and if we have our grandchildren with us double reason.

 

[MisterCairo]

I was responding in particular to Mr. Podge, who wrote, among other comments:


“Bigger is safer” is just a way for people who use their Lincoln Navigator to move one person, MAYBE two, POSSIBLY a dog, and the occasional bag of groceries feel justification for the level of conspicuous consumption they are really partaking in.

Until they can make green motors that can move the mass of a bloated luxury boat, the luxury car needs to die.


I'm fed up with people seeing "five" persons in my household telling me (not suggesting, but telling, with holier than thou passion) that the maximum sized vehicle I am entitled to own in their snootier than thou opinion, is one with five seatbelts.

The days of the front bench seat seating three with three in the back are over, and guess what? Those were HUGE cars!

I also find that those who tell us with families that we don't "need" larger vehicles either have never had families, or chose to do without such a vehicle. Good for you!

Want to live the European driving lifestyle? Move to Europe! We're heading to the Buick dealership....


All of you regardless of your position on the political spectrum out there will be pleased to hear this is my last comment on the subject.

 

[Foofoogal]

Before this thread gets locked I would really like to hear the history of small cars. When I went to Scotland and Germany it is the norm. I didn't pay attention to be honest in Canada. In Scotland I can understand it as there is a much smaller land mass then Texas per se or USA.
How long has this been the norm to drive smaller cars in those other countries? Did it start with the VW bug in Germany? [huh]
I understand about conservation and stuff but it would be like asking the UK to stop having a Royal Family. To some of us we seriously find it appauling to even suggest all of us buy a little bitty car. We cannot fathom it. I hope someone can appreciate my take on it. Just saying the truth and what people feel.

 

[Feraud]

All you greenies out there will be pleased to hear this is my last comment on the subject.

Let's not go there with the snide comments and turn this into a Right versus Left issue.

 

[Flivver]

Before this thread gets locked I would really like to hear the history of small cars.

Most countries (other than the U.S. and Canada) taxed vehicles on engine displacement since very early in the history of the auto industry. This led to very small cars there, almost from the start, compared to what we had here. More recently, other countries have taxed fuel quite heavily to incentivize people to drive small fuel-efficient cars.

Conversely, here in North America, fuel has not been heavily taxed and we do not tax light duty vehicles based on engine displacement. So until Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) legislation arrived in response to the 1973 Energy Crisis, cars grew as big as we Americans wanted them to.

With the 1975 CAFE legislation, cars in North America were downsized, but most Americans didn't like the smaller cars so many switched to trucks.

Today, with a renewed environmental interest in some camps, new CAFE legislation has been enacted for the 2011-2016 timeframe. During this time period, auto manufacturers will likely meet the new regs with improved powertrain technology and cars won't see significant downsizing. But, the next round of CAFE, due to begin in 2017 will likely be stringent enough that vehicle downsizing will be required as well. At this point in time, we will truly bid farewell to the large car here in North America.

 

[scotrace]

Cadillacs are no longer the cars they were, but I wonder how many howled when the '48's came out, a major departure from previous styling?
It has always been a mystery to me why GM turned the fleet car biz over to Ford on a platter.

At any rate, in speaking of small car safety, it was a little over a year ago now that a drunk driver plowed head-on into a VW Beetle driven by our Barbigirl. The car was so chewed up as to make a person ill to see the photos. But apparently the safety structures all worked, as she is completely recovered from a crash that would have killed her had she been driving a 195X Cadillac.

Let's not argue about the environmental impact of smaller vs. larger. Keep it on topic, please.

 

[Foofoogal]

Most countries (other than the U.S. and Canada) taxed vehicles on engine displacement

thank you Flivver. Very interesting. Not sure what engine displacement is but I guess the sheer size of these countries made it necessary. I guess people would never miss what they have never had so these other countries cannot fathom us holding on or wanting to hold onto our larger ones.
I could not believe gasoline was sold by the liter in Scotland. Blew my mind.
This is somewhat to me the housing in Japan that people go to to sleep in pods. To the Japanese it is understandable but to us it is

The only solution I can even consider is if cars ran automatically like on tracks. I just read Bill Gates is predicting soon we will not even need a mouse to use our computer but all by wrist action. Why can they not put sensors or something in the cars or the roads like tracking devices to use. I can dream can't I.
http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article3149490.ece
If voice command on computers why not cars. Turn left I say, turn left. Nowww....
Then someone needs to figure out a better solution to sheetrock and wallpaper. The most archaic things ever.