The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD

[Garrett]

A smaller twin to the one @carouselvic owns. This one lost its trolley button at some point.

 

[mayserwegener]

Garrett, Fantastic! Did you receive it without a button? All my old Borsalino have loops but without buttons. Also if you have a chance can you post a photo of the paper label? I am wondering if it has the separate size label. It's from that time period.

 

[Garrett]

Garrett, Fantastic! Did you receive it without a button? All my old Borsalino have loops but without buttons. Also if you have a chance can you post a photo of the paper label? I am wondering if it has the separate size label. It's from that time period.

The hat came without a trolley button. Here is a photo of the tag:

 

[mayserwegener]

Garrett, Thanks! I am fairly certain the wind cord didn't have a button. Here is a date stamped 1929 Echter Borsalino with wind cord with just loop. I have other examples from Borsalino and from German & Austrian manufactures. In fact I am not sure I have any 1950s or older hats (European makers) with wind cord buttons.

Your paper label has the size. My Zalteff has the separate size label. Here is an example from a recent Echter Borsalino.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionz...c/50-borsalino-german-market/page-3#entry1890

There is some controversy regarding these Zalteff hats but I am fairly certain they are later 1930s into the early 1940s. The older paper labels have cells and the French Point size hand written (see below). Sometime in 1930s this label type was dropped.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionz...c/50-borsalino-german-market/page-2#entry1153

 

[Garrett]

We may never know the truth behind the Borsalino tag dating system. Here is an older Borsalino with a non separate size tag label and the punti size printed vs hand written:

 

[mayserwegener]

We may never know the truth behind the Borsalino tag dating system. Here is an older Borsalino with a non separate size tag label and the punti size printed vs hand written:

Garrett, Fantastic! This hat is an original G.B. Borsalino fu Lazzero & C. so a different factory. They were absorbed by Borsalino Giuseppe e Fratello SPA in 1937 due to financial issues. This hat is definitely around 1936 or older.

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/g-b-borsalino-fu-lazzaro-c-1936.53129/

The cell format is 1930s and older for Borsalino Giuseppe e Fratello SPA. There is definitely a transition from it in the 1930s. There are enough examples of this type of celled label (from different markets) and in my case date stamped. The anomalies begin when different types of thinner non cell labels appear some time in the 1930s. My guess is the thinner non cell paper labels with separate size stamped labels are around the transition point but that can't be verified.

 

[steur]

View attachment 151218 I have followed this thread with great pleasure for a few years now but never posted anything, so it's about time! I'll start out with my (so far) modest borsalino rotation.

Back row, from left.
Mirtillo colored long fur. Size 57cm, so just a tad too small for me.
Florida brown homburg size 58, marked 5 1/2.
Sepia color long fur. 58cm.

Front row, from left.
Forra color fedora, size 5, thinking about stretching it as I really love this color, but it's a tad too small.
A grey new fedora. This was my first borsalino, and first hat at that, before I got hooked on the old ones.
Moka color fedora, size 58. This is my absolute favorite companion, with which I will never part. Actually had a dream from which I woke up in panic, I had forgotten it on the bus, luckily it was resting on its shelf all along.

Next I want a rollable one, in box!

Thanks for all great posts!
/Fredrik

Nice looking collection you have there, Fredrik. Keep them coming and welcome to both the fedora lounge and the borsalino brotherhood. Dreaming about your hats, eh? O dear

 

[Tonio]

We may never know the truth behind the Borsalino tag dating system. Here is an older Borsalino with a non separate size tag label and the punti size printed vs hand written:

That's a great one!

 

[steur]

In the following Qualita Extra Superiore are listed as having Rabbit fur content and a lower price point but this is not a Borsalino publication. Velour is the highest price point (so finish driven).

Giusepe Gallieni Rome sponsored Map/ad (probably from the 1950s)

As Daniele mentions there doesn't seem to be anything we know of to these designations. I don't believe I have ever seen Extra or Extra Extra Superiore used on German Market Borsalinos (addressing 1920s to the early 1980s) only Qualita' Superiore. For example these very high quality 1929 Echter Borsalino Qualita' Superiore. Not sure what Borsalino would have been above them in quality ranking in this time period.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/50-borsalino-german-market/#entry1118

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionz...c/50-borsalino-german-market/page-2#entry1153

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionz...c/50-borsalino-german-market/page-2#entry1198

Thanks for posting that again, Steve. The German market Borsalinos come in the designation "Qualitá Speciale" as well, like this one (but I have several more examples of this designation being used for the "Export Qualität" Borsalinos).

 

[steur]

Thank you very much for your kind feedback, Daniele.
It is exacly like you said: "it is difficult to judge a Borsalino (or others) without having them in the hands or better on the head"
Buying online, I can only judge a hat by the images and the information provided.
Images can be of poor quality without any details. Information can be rare or misleading.
Even when I find a good looking hat offer, I can only guess what the felt is going to feel like.
So yes, I do take "evaluations" into consideration when looking for hats online.
And yes, I have bid more money if it says "extra extra". This marketing strategy from decades ago still works today
No, I do not have historical evidence that "extra extra superiore" were sold at a higher price than a "superiore" decades ago.
But I strongly assume that was the purpose to name them that way; don't you think so also?
I believe you that such rankings are not very reliable, but they atleast give me a clue or hint of what to expect.
Servus from Munich, Georg
P.S. thank you too, Steve.

There was a post somewhere in this thread that listed the qualities that Borsalino used (as far as we know), but I can't find it right now. From what I have in my files on the Borsalinos I've seen these are the ones I know of:
qualitá superiore
qualitá extra superiore
qualitá extra extra superiore
qualitá speciale
qualitá finissima
qualitá extra finissima
qualitá suprema
qualitá massima (can't find the file of that one)
qualitá augusta (only seen on a sweatband).
If anyone has other examples I'd love to see them. As far as I know the designations Augusta, Trionfo, Gran Lusso and Marque Grand Luxe were not used in general as quality designations (I have only one example of the Qualitá Augusta).

 

[steur]

Garrett, Thanks! I am fairly certain the wind cord didn't have a button. Here is a date stamped 1929 Echter Borsalino with wind cord with just loop. I have other examples from Borsalino and from German & Austrian manufactures. In fact I am not sure I have any 1950s or older hats (European makers) with wind cord buttons.

Your paper label has the size. My Zalteff has the separate size label. Here is an example from a recent Echter Borsalino.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionz...c/50-borsalino-german-market/page-3#entry1890

There is some controversy regarding these Zalteff hats but I am fairly certain they are later 1930s into the early 1940s. The older paper labels have cells and the French Point size hand written (see below). Sometime in 1930s this label type was dropped.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionz...c/50-borsalino-german-market/page-2#entry1153

I'll second what Steve posted on the wind cords: they probably never had a button. Here's a recent find from the same period with the same characteristics:

 

[mayserwegener]

Thanks for posting that again, Steve. The German market Borsalinos come in the designation "Qualitá Speciale" as well, like this one (but I have several more examples of this designation being used for the "Export Qualität" Borsalinos).

View attachment 151713 View attachment 151714 View attachment 151715

Stefan, Yes I have had a couple "Export Qualität" Qualitá "Speciale" but they are later. I haven't seen a Qualitá Extra / Extra Extra Echter Borsalino, Echter Borsalino Export Qualität, Export Qualität ever as far as I can recall but doesn't mean they didn't exist. I did find this (probably early to mid 1950s) Echter Borsalino "Nutria" in the Gotisches Haus (Gothic House) Bad Homburg, Germany archive hat collection.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionz...c/50-borsalino-german-market/page-2#entry1326

 

[steur]

We may never know the truth behind the Borsalino tag dating system. Here is an older Borsalino with a non separate size tag label and the punti size printed vs hand written:

That is indeed very very beautiful.

 

[mayserwegener]

There was a post somewhere in this thread that listed the qualities that Borsalino used (as far as we know), but I can't find it right now. From what I have in my files on the Borsalinos I've seen these are the ones I know of:
qualitá superiore
qualitá extra superiore
qualitá extra extra superiore
qualitá speciale
qualitá finissima
qualitá extra finissima
qualitá suprema
qualitá massima (can't find the file of that one)
qualitá augusta (only seen on a sweatband).
If anyone has other examples I'd love to see them. As far as I know the designations Augusta, Trionfo, Gran Lusso and Marque Grand Luxe were not used in general as quality designations (I have only one example of the Qualitá Augusta).

View attachment 151721

Yes but do they cross over to different markets plus what do they mean for each market / time period? Most Echter Borsalinos are Qualitá Superiore (the only exception being the early to mid 1950s Echter Borsalino Nutria I just mentioned).

This Echter Borsalino Qualitá Superiore is from the same general time period as the Italian Market Borsalino Extra Qualitá Superiore you just posted but I don't see it being of lower quality.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionz...c/50-borsalino-german-market/page-3#entry1890

 

[steur]

Yes but do they cross over to different markets plus what do they mean for each market / time period? Most Echter Borsalinos are Qualitá Superiore (the only exception being the early to mid 1950s Echter Borsalino Nutria I just mentioned). For example this Echter Borsalino Qualitá Superiore that is from the same general time period as the Italian Market Borsalino Extra Qualitá Superiore you just posted but I don't see it being of lower quality.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionz...c/50-borsalino-german-market/page-3#entry1890

That is exactly the problem, Steve. Like you mentioned there doesn't seem to an immediately noticeable difference in quality between all these different designations. Somehow I don't think it's all down to marketing though. Different markets are likely part of the puzzle, but for some reason I think there must be more to it than just that.

 

[mayserwegener]

I'll second what Steve posted on the wind cords: they probably never had a button. Here's a recent find from the same period with the same characteristics:
View attachment 151722 View attachment 151723 View attachment 151724

Just to clarify I was addressing European makers. I remembered I do have a late 1950s Hückel Weilheim Exclusiv Homburg with a buttoned wind cord so probably some others. I know I don't have any from the early 1940s and earlier with button wind cords.

 

[mayserwegener]

That is exactly the problem, Steve. Like you mentioned there doesn't seem to an immediately noticeable difference in quality between all these different designations. Somehow I don't think it's all down to marketing though. Different markets are likely part of the puzzle, but for some reason I think there must be more to it than just that.

The Giusepe Gallieni Rome mini catalog posted above shows that type, finish and fur content are more important (I see this same pattern in early Austrian Hat Company catalogs I have). I haven't seen any other 1950s or earlier Borsalino catalogs (somebody please find them) with similar information but in this case it's also designated for a a specific market / time period (also limited in scope).

Extra Superior (Rabbit Felt) L. 4000
Six Star Marque Grand Luxe very soft Velour L. 12000
Five X Fine Antelope L. 9000

The hats with the specialty finishes are at the highest price point above Beaver felt in this case.

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/the-borsalino-brotherhood.13133/page-349#post-2505149

 

[steur]

The Giusepe Gallieni Rome mini catalog posted above shows that type, finish and fur content are more important (I see this same pattern in early Austrian Hat Company catalogs I have). I haven't seen any other 1950s or earlier Borsalino catalogs (somebody please find them) with similar information but in this case it's also designated for a a specific market / time period.

I think you're right on the money there, Steve: finish, fur, weight, market and type might well be the factors that would determine which designation was used for a hat.

 

[mayserwegener]

What needs to be found are catalogs like this one from Anton Pichler Graz (1914) that shows the qualities and pricing but there aren't any specific details. I haven't seen anything like this from Borsalino Giuseppe e Fratello SPA (1900- 1960). If someone has any please post them.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/25-anton-pichler-hutfabrik-josef-pichler-söhne/#entry1414

Here is another one from Anton Pichler Graz (1915-16). This one has more specifics.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/25-anton-pichler-hutfabrik-josef-pichler-söhne/#entry1232

This one from Alois Pichler Hut-Niederlage, Wien (possibly late 1800s) has good specifics. You can see type, fur content and price.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionz...4-alois-pichler-hut-niederlage-wien/#entry805

Daniele, Please find for Borsalino 1900 - 1980!

 

[Daniele Tanto]

Daniele, Please find for Borsalino 1900 - 1980!

I always try to do my best, but so far I have found only one catalog in 1989
I stay tuned in search of some document that speaks of the Borsalino hats in detail
Meanwhile, good hunting for you too!