The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD

[Cornshucker77]

I'd love to have a Borsa thin ribbon. Nice looking hats. I only handled one that was way too small for me at an antique mall. That was some nice felt. Guess Borsa will go on my list of "unreachables" as well.

The FL has introduced me to so many hats that I want now, it's causing a little anxiety. Too many hats not enough money!!

 

[Redfokker]

Mike, thanks. I'm still trying to figure out which crease suits it best to be honest. It seems to like the "chicken foot" kind of crease (I believe that I've read it was called). I gave water with a little dishwashing soap a try and it worked out remarkably well on the stains!

I was worried they were oil/grease based. Dodged that bullet!

 

[Daniele Tanto]

A fabulous hat! What leads you to think it is pre-war? My heart would love that to be true, but my brain remains cautious... ;^)

Thanks, Alan. There are a number of features which make me think it's pre-war. The label is pre 1955 and it has the size written on it with a fountain pen (not something I'd expect on a later hat). The cloth crown patch is not something I have seen on many later hats (although they do occur on lightweight hats), but the oilskin covered crown patches are more common with the later hats. The shape of the hat is uncommon too for a later hat. Then there's the kind of leather on the sweatband, which I have not seen on later hats and the size tag is very different from the red and white rounded one we see on hats from the fifties and sixties. All in all several clues that make me think it's pre-war. But there's always doubt and I can't positively prove it's pre-war of course.

Alan, thank you. It would be nice to find some older borsalino hats with dates on them, but untill then it will be (hopefully) educated guesswork for all of us. All we can do is add more hats to the collection in the name of science

not sure where that 1955 date came from, but I've seen hats that disprove it(exactly two). If the Zlateff hats are war era and before then......

I am fairly certain the Echter Borsalino I just posted above is WWII era and it has the separate size stamp. I have some other Echter Borsalinos with the seperate size stamps and one belonged to a lady's father that died in 1948 and was purchased prior WWII. By the way this hat has a very similar sweatband to the Zlateff you just posted.

I bring my contribution to the discussion on the historicity of the Borsalino and their dating. This is clearly an Italian point of view.
A) Borsalino has never thrown away anything from home. Felt cones, sweatbands, ribbons and bows, linings and any component to make hats have always been "recycled" in the historic Borsalino production. There are felt of the thirties used in hats of the fifties, the same applies to the trimmings and other parts of the hat. This can be seen in various products, indeed in the millions of hats produced in Alessandria. Often this mixture is misleading.
B) What is very doubtful in the dating of the hats before the Second World War is the words "Made in Italy". During the Fascist period, all the few foreign words that were used in the spoken language, mostly came from French, were "Italianized". Economic policy was based on autarchy with great emphasis on the Italian domestic product, so it sounds strange to me that the term "Made in Italy", which is the son of war and the socio-political-economic situation of Italy, in the western block, has been used. It was used hugely after the Second World War and became a sort of brand for Italian products of every kind.
C) The American market, understood as United States of America, is not so important for Giuseppe Borsalino in the 20s and 30s, it is much more so for the G.B. Borsalino fu Lazzaro. There was a war on import taxation in the US, Steve gave the transcription a while ago and the South American market was larger in those years as well as the European markets. However I have the Borsalino export data in the years at the turn of the crisis of 1929 and will post them so they can help.
I am sure that the Borsalino dating puzzle is a beautiful game, constructive and expensive, but fascinating
In my experience I saw a few "Italian" Borsalino sold here before the war, they appear more in Europe, if they do not have the word "made in Italy"

 

[steur]

I was worried they were oil/grease based. Dodged that bullet!

So was I, but I thought to try the simple solution first. Sometimes simple works!

 

[steur]

I bring my contribution to the discussion on the historicity of the Borsalino and their dating. This is clearly an Italian point of view.
A) Borsalino has never thrown away anything from home. Felt cones, sweatbands, ribbons and bows, linings and any component to make hats have always been "recycled" in the historic Borsalino production. There are felt of the thirties used in hats of the fifties, the same applies to the trimmings and other parts of the hat. This can be seen in various products, indeed in the millions of hats produced in Alessandria. Often this mixture is misleading.
B) What is very doubtful in the dating of the hats before the Second World War is the words "Made in Italy". During the Fascist period, all the few foreign words that were used in the spoken language, mostly came from French, were "Italianized". Economic policy was based on autarchy with great emphasis on the Italian domestic product, so it sounds strange to me that the term "Made in Italy", which is the son of war and the socio-political-economic situation of Italy, in the western block, has been used. It was used hugely after the Second World War and became a sort of brand for Italian products of every kind.
C) The American market, understood as United States of America, is not so important for Giuseppe Borsalino in the 20s and 30s, it is much more so for the G.B. Borsalino fu Lazzaro. There was a war on import taxation in the US, Steve gave the transcription a while ago and the South American market was larger in those years as well as the European markets. However I have the Borsalino export data in the years at the turn of the crisis of 1929 and will post them so they can help.
I am sure that the Borsalino dating puzzle is a beautiful game, constructive and expensive, but fascinating
In my experience I saw a few "Italian" Borsalino sold here before the war, they appear more in Europe, if they do not have the word "made in Italy"

Very informative, Daniele. It doesn't make it any clearer though. Maybe we could try carbon-dating these hats!

 

[mayserwegener]

I bring my contribution to the discussion on the historicity of the Borsalino and their dating. This is clearly an Italian point of view.
A) Borsalino has never thrown away anything from home. Felt cones, sweatbands, ribbons and bows, linings and any component to make hats have always been "recycled" in the historic Borsalino production. There are felt of the thirties used in hats of the fifties, the same applies to the trimmings and other parts of the hat. This can be seen in various products, indeed in the millions of hats produced in Alessandria. Often this mixture is misleading.
B) What is very doubtful in the dating of the hats before the Second World War is the words "Made in Italy". During the Fascist period, all the few foreign words that were used in the spoken language, mostly came from French, were "Italianized". Economic policy was based on autarchy with great emphasis on the Italian domestic product, so it sounds strange to me that the term "Made in Italy", which is the son of war and the socio-political-economic situation of Italy, in the western block, has been used. It was used hugely after the Second World War and became a sort of brand for Italian products of every kind.
C) The American market, understood as United States of America, is not so important for Giuseppe Borsalino in the 20s and 30s, it is much more so for the G.B. Borsalino fu Lazzaro. There was a war on import taxation in the US, Steve gave the transcription a while ago and the South American market was larger in those years as well as the European markets. However I have the Borsalino export data in the years at the turn of the crisis of 1929 and will post them so they can help.
I am sure that the Borsalino dating puzzle is a beautiful game, constructive and expensive, but fascinating
In my experience I saw a few "Italian" Borsalino sold here before the war, they appear more in Europe, if they do not have the word "made in Italy"

Daniele, Thank you for the great input!

My point is that the early paper labels (regardless of market) had the size hand written and had a different format (see my late 1929 date stamped Echter Borsalinos and other examples posted below). The Zlateff (Sofia, Bulgaria) hat Vic posted is probably around the time when the printed / stamped size was added to to the more elongated paper labels (early 1940s?). As I mentioned I have Zlateff with the separate size stamp and similar hat form (I will post photos later). The hats with the separate size stamp and elongated label (different form than my 1929 Echter Borsalinos and other old examples posted below) seem to be later 1930s into the early 1940s. There was a transition some time in the 1930s from the paper label format of the later 1920s (see my Echter Borsalino's verified by date stamp and other non date stamped posted below). The mystery of the Zlateff hats would be solved by finding out what happened to the hat store post WWII. I believe (others believe so too) these Zlateff hats are from the WWII era but others are skeptical.

Borsalino examples from different markets that are definitely 1930s or older and I don't believe this can be challenged.

Tonio's "Imported by George A. Place, Concord" is the only American imported hat that I have seen with the old style label and it does have the U.S. / American Size written on the paper label and the size stamp (similar to my 1929 date stamped Echter Borsalinos posted below ).

It also has "Made in Italy" (see under Borsalino).

My date stamped 1929 German market Echter Borsalinos.

Date stamp 17.5.29.

English market "Giorgetto" Borsalino Stiff Felt that belongs to Tonio.

Italian market "Giorgetto" Borsalino Stiff Felt of mine with a similar paper label with written size that is also at least 1930s maybe earlier.

Post mark 3.31.31 from case.

My point is this type of paper label format (see above examples) changes some time post late 1920s (my Echter Borsalinos are date stamped 1929) and I do not believe it ever returns / reused. Vic, others?

 

[alanfgag]

Daniele, Thank you for the great input!

My point is this type of paper label format (see above examples) changes some time post late 1920s (my Echter Borsalinos are date stamped 1929) and I do not believe it ever returns / reused. Vic, others?

Many thanks Daniele and Steve for your insights. My sense is that the labels posted by Steve are representative of an earlier period. I have collected many Borsalino hats yet have none with these labels. I do have quite a number of the narrow labels with separate size sticker (colored ink and black) which I believe are earlier than those with the size imprinted on the manufacturing label, but my guess is these are post-war when directed to the U.S. market. The history of Borsalino production and trade before, during and after the war would be most informative, as the parts and pieces (as Daniele points out above) would be subject to reuse as needed, especially during the lean times during and after the war.

My Zlateff Borsalino has the narrow label with separate size sticker. The only hat I own that might be a relative of the old Borsalinos that Steve shares above is this Barbisio sold in Bulgaria, with its older manufacturing tag and French language markings.

 

[Daniele Tanto]

My Zlateff Borsalino has the narrow label with separate size sticker. The only hat I own that might be a relative of the old Borsalinos that Steve shares above is this Barbisio sold in Bulgaria, with its older manufacturing tag and French language markings.

This is one of the most old Barbisio I saw in my life.
What is interesting is the very similar way in the Italian hats producers to finish and marked the hat (see paper label and the French size and "Importé d'Italie" and "Rat-Gondin") The French language was used at that time, in Europe, to call everything in the fashion world.
About Borsalino I have some more thoughts, but my cold is at maximum and I feel a little bit dumb

 

[Steve1857]

This is one of the most old Barbisio I saw in my life.
What is interesting is the very similar way in the Italian hats producers to finish and marked the hat (see paper label and the French size and "Importé d'Italie" and "Rat-Gondin") The French language was used at that time, in Europe, to call everything in the fashion world.
About Borsalino I have some more thoughts, but my cold is at maximum and I feel a little bit dumb

Your knowledgeable input is always valued highly here, Daniele. Get well soon.

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

 

[mayserwegener]

Many thanks Daniele and Steve for your insights. My sense is that the labels posted by Steve are representative of an earlier period. I have collected many Borsalino hats yet have none with these labels. I do have quite a number of the narrow labels with separate size sticker (colored ink and black) which I believe are earlier than those with the size imprinted on the manufacturing label, but my guess is these are post-war when directed to the U.S. market. The history of Borsalino production and trade before, during and after the war would be most informative, as the parts and pieces (as Daniele points out above) would be subject to reuse as needed, especially during the lean times during and after the war.

My Zlateff Borsalino has the narrow label with separate size sticker. The only hat I own that might be a relative of the old Borsalinos that Steve shares above is this Barbisio sold in Bulgaria, with its older manufacturing tag and French language markings.

Alan, Fantastic old Barbisio!

There aren't many examples of the old labels I posted above. There is another one I didn't post from early in this thread.

I am fairly certain the German market Echter Borsalinos I have (have seen) with the separate size stamp are from around the late 1930s.

As I mentioned my only Zlateff Borsalino has the separate size stamp.

 

[alanfgag]

Two velour Borsalinos... similar hats, different markets.

 

[mayserwegener]

Borasalino from Simeon Zlateff with the separate size stamp. The main paper label is different than the Zlateff that Alan posted above but similar to the Zlateff Vic posted yesterday with the Point size printed / stamped on the main paper label. I made an inquiry regarding Simeon Zlateff so I will update when / if I receive any information.

The address "Rue Alabinska" appears to be pre WWII based on online search results. I am not sure how long this was used post WWII. Also the reference as a Royal Court supplier. Sofia was bombed extensively in 1944 and Bulgaria became a Communist country in 1946. I was able to find the street name Alabin which is in the city center so I suppose that was Rue Alabinska. Google Street View doesn't show a Alabin 31 and that side of the street block only has one old building while the other side is more intact.

Alabin Street 29, Sofia Bulgaria

 

[Redfokker]

Borasalino from Simeon Zlateff with the separate size stamp. The main paper label is different than the Zlateff that Alan posted above but similar to the Zlateff Vic posted yesterday with the Point size printed / stamped on the main paper label. I made an inquiry regarding Simeon Zlateff so I will update when / if I receive any information.

The address "Rue Alabinska" appears to be pre WWII based on online search results. I am not sure how long this was used post WWII. Also the reference as a Royal Court supplier. Sofia was bombed extensively in 1944 and Bulgaria became a Communist country in 1946. I was able to find the street name Alabin which is in the city center so I suppose that was Rue Alabinska. Google Street View doesn't show a Alabin 31 and that side of the street block only has one old building while the other side is more intact.

Alabin Street 29, Sofia Bulgaria

I have been enjoying this historical discussion very much Steve, Alan and Daniele. I can only dream of such beautiful Borsalinos, with such a rich history. Made me smile this morning.

 

[alanfgag]

Borasalino from Simeon Zlateff with the separate size stamp. The main paper label is different than the Zlateff that Alan posted above but similar to the Zlateff Vic posted yesterday with the Point size printed / stamped on the main paper label. I made an inquiry regarding Simeon Zlateff so I will update when / if I receive any information.

The address "Rue Alabinska" appears to be pre WWII based on online search results. I am not sure how long this was used post WWII. Also the reference as a Royal Court supplier. Sofia was bombed extensively in 1944 and Bulgaria became a Communist country in 1946. I was able to find the street name Alabin which is in the city center so I suppose that was Rue Alabinska. Google Street View doesn't show a Alabin 31 and that side of the street block only has one old building while the other side is more intact.

Alabin Street 29, Sofia Bulgaria

The reference to the Royal Court could be a good reason to assume these hats are pre-1946 and explains why these hats became a liability after the establishment of the People's Republic of Bulgaria. The timetable of the Zlateff eBay stash - how much their production pre-dates 1946 remains a guess. My guess is not too far before.

 

[alanfgag]

I could also imagine Borsalino making up an order for Simeon Zlateff in the later 1940s with sweatbands that had been imprinted with a pre-war die... and I can imagine the back and forth between Zlateff and the factory... "are you kidding me??!!... we can't put these out for sale." Strikes a familiar chord with production issues I have experienced at work over the years. 8^o

 

[steur]

Daniele, Thank you for the great input!

My point is that the early paper labels (regardless of market) had the size hand written and had a different format (see my late 1929 date stamped Echter Borsalinos and other examples posted below). The Zlateff (Sofia, Bulgaria) hat Vic posted is probably around the time when the printed / stamped size was added to to the more elongated paper labels (early 1940s?). As I mentioned I have Zlateff with the separate size stamp and similar hat form (I will post photos later). The hats with the separate size stamp and elongated label (different form than my 1929 Echter Borsalinos and other old examples posted below) seem to be later 1930s into the early 1940s. There was a transition some time in the 1930s from the paper label format of the later 1920s (see my Echter Borsalino's verified by date stamp and other non date stamped posted below). The mystery of the Zlateff hats would be solved by finding out what happened to the hat store post WWII. I believe (others believe so too) these Zlateff hats are from the WWII era but others are skeptical.

Borsalino examples from different markets that are definitely 1930s or older and I don't believe this can be challenged.

Tonio's "Imported by George A. Place, Concord" is the only American imported hat that I have seen with the old style label and it does have the U.S. / American Size written on the paper label and the size stamp (similar to my 1929 date stamped Echter Borsalinos posted below ).

It also has "Made in Italy" (see under Borsalino).

My date stamped 1929 German market Echter Borsalinos.

Date stamp 17.5.29.

English market "Giorgetto" Borsalino Stiff Felt that belongs to Tonio.

Italian market "Giorgetto" Borsalino Stiff Felt of mine with a similar paper label with written size that is also at least 1930s maybe earlier.

Post mark 3.31.31 from case.

My point is this type of paper label format (see above examples) changes some time post late 1920s (my Echter Borsalinos are date stamped 1929) and I do not believe it ever returns / reused. Vic, others?

Steve, thank for a very useful overview. I do have a few of these older labels, but other than the stories from the sellers (not always the most reliable source) no hard dates on any of them.

 

[steur]

Two velour Borsalinos... similar hats, different markets.

Apart from them being great looking hats, these are interesting for a number of reasons. One of them being that a pre-war date on them would disprove Steve's idea that Borsalino did not do special finishes before WWII. A pre-war date seems to come down to what can be found on Simeon Zlateff. It would be highly unlikely that sweatbands with an outdated address would be re-used after the war.

 

[mayserwegener]

Stefan, Thanks! Do you have like the ones I posted above with the cells / boxes (see link)? If so can you post them?

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/the-borsalino-brotherhood.13133/page-310#post-2391081

 

[steur]

If it's any help, here are my examples of early labels.

Borsalino Lobbia Nebbia: codes, colour and size all written on the label.

Borsalino bowler Stregone: stamped name, but written size.

Borsalino Misto Lapis for European market: newer (?) label but with separate size sticker.

Borsalino Misto Topo for the American market: newer (?) label with written size.

I'm still a firm supporter of the idea that the more written on the label the earlier the hat, with the separate size sticker as an intermediate solution before everything was printed or stamped on the label.

 

[mayserwegener]

Apart from them being great looking hats, these are interesting for a number of reasons. One of them being that a pre-war date on them would disprove Steve's idea that Borsalino did not do special finishes before WWII. A pre-war date seems to come down to what can be found on Simeon Zlateff. It would be highly unlikely that sweatbands with an outdated address would be re-used after the war.

I haven't seen any production information (photos or in writing) so just a guess. Also what type of fur and process was used to produce the finish? With high quality Austrian and German Velour there is hot wet brushing (this was originally done by hand) during the felting process and the major fur content is Hare. Auto Wet Brushing machines came in the 1930s. I know Panizza didn't start Velour production until after WWII and only used Hot Wet Brushing machines.