So trivial, yet it really ticks you off.

[kaiser]

Saturnalia was the Roman winter solstice holiday, celebrated with feasting and gift-giving and general merriment. It was co-opted by the early Church around the fourth century AD and turned into Christmas. An early effort by the Holy Fathers From Marketing, if you will.

Thanks, I had a feeling it was heathen, but was not sure, the point about the Holy Fathers From Marketing is a good one.

 

[GHT]

Also, except for it being a marketing ploy, why is it "Merry Christmas"?

This is all about grammatical structure, as an English speaker, you should not repeat yourself in the same sentence. So, happy Christmas is fine, as long as it's not followed by happy new year. To wish someone a good time at both festivities, you need an alternative to one of the happy(s.)
Hence merry for Christmas and happy for new year.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
Is this capitalization correct? If so, does this mean that "Merry Christmas" and "Happy New Year" are proper nouns?
capitalization Christmas. "Christmas" and "New Year" are proper nouns; the "Merry" and "Happy" are modifiers capitalized due to association.

But you, my friend, with your eloquent use of my mother tongue, can say it as you like.

 

[scottyrocks]

If someone wishes me whatever they wish me, I respond in kind. If I am the first to do so, I use Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays alternatively, sometimes depending on whether or not I know the person.

I try not to think about it too much.

 

[swanson_eyes]

I don't wish anyone anything because frankly I'm not going to suddenly adopt a phrase I don't use 50 weeks out of the year. My mouth gets confused. But if anyone wishes me a happy anything I say "Thank you!" I already say that all day long at work, so it rolls off the tongue.

 

[Zombie_61]

This is all about grammatical structure, as an English speaker, you should not repeat yourself in the same sentence. So, happy Christmas is fine, as long as it's not followed by happy new year. To wish someone a good time at both festivities, you need an alternative to one of the happy(s.)
Hence merry for Christmas and happy for new year.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!...

Your explanation is the most sensible and reasonable I've received. Thank you!

...Is this capitalization correct? If so, does this mean that "Merry Christmas" and "Happy New Year" are proper nouns?
capitalization Christmas. "Christmas" and "New Year" are proper nouns; the "Merry" and "Happy" are modifiers capitalized due to association...

I have no idea if the capitalization is correct, or even warranted; maybe I've simply read too many greeting cards.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

圣诞快乐

 

[MisterCairo]

Also, except for it being a marketing ploy, why is it "Merry Christmas"? For every other holiday or event we use the word "happy"--Happy New Year, Happy Easter, Happy Fourth of July, Happy Birthday, Happy Anniversary, and so on. Merry Christmas? Rubbish. When I do use the term, and that's infrequently, I say "Happy Christmas" just to see the confused looks on peoples' faces.

In England "Happy Christmas" is common. Not universal, but quite common.

It stands out in North America during the first Harry Potter film, HP and the Philosopher's Stone (Sorcerer's Stone to Americans, for reasons I've never understood). "Happy Christmas, Harry!" "Happy Christmas, Ron!"

Oh, and we North Americans may be interested to know that in the original version of "Twas the Night Before Christmas", among other things that have evolved (Dunder and Blixem, anybody?), it was HAPPY Christmas to all, and to all a good night!"

The book version I read to my girls each Christmas Eve has the original text.

Oh, Happy Boxing Day everyone!

 

[LizzieMaine]

Even though I do know the derivation of the name and the custom, I can't hear "Boxing Day" without my first thought being of Joe Louis.

 

[KILO NOVEMBER]

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
Is this capitalization correct? If so, does this mean that "Merry Christmas" and "Happy New Year" are proper nouns?
capitalization Christmas. "Christmas" and "New Year" are proper nouns; the "Merry" and "Happy" are modifiers capitalized due to association.

"Christmas" is certainly a proper noun, while "New Year", is probably so, but I could be persuaded otherwise. Now "Merry Christmas!" is a sentence in the hortative mood, so the "Merry" get's the initial cap because it's the first word in the sentence. Likewise the sentence "Happy New Year!".

 

[HudsonHawk]

Even though I do know the derivation of the name and the custom, I can't hear "Boxing Day" without my first thought being of Joe Louis.

I've never gotten a straight answer from anyone on exactly what "Boxing Day" is. I still don't know.

 

[HudsonHawk]

"Christmas" is certainly a proper noun, while "New Year", is probably so, but I could be persuaded otherwise. Now "Merry Christmas!" is a sentence in the hortative mood, so the "Merry" get's the initial cap because it's the first word in the sentence. Likewise the sentence "Happy New Year!".

I would suggest that "New Year's Day" is a proper noun, but not necessarily "new year". I think most of the time, we are wishing people well on the former.

 

[Fading Fast]

I know there is a lot of politics behind, but I'll weigh in with my humble opinion. This country's origins and history are imbued with Christianity. Despite our separation of church and state it was a Christian country in the sense of most of its citizens where Christian (and still are today).

As long as the separation of Church and State is still strong, and while never perfect (what complex idea is every executed perfectly), it feels pretty secure to me and as long as everyone is free to practice their own religion (again, nothing is executed perfectly), then as an agnostic (albeit for fair disclosure, from a predominantly Christian background), I think the cultural (not legal) tradition of saying Merry Christmas (on the grammar front, I think the two caps for this falls into the "irregular but correct owing to historical and repeated practice" category) is fine. I don't practice Christianity, but have never been offended by being wished a "Merry Christmas." I also would not be offended if someone wished me a happy Hanukah around that time.

If I was in Japan and was wished a happy Shinto or Buddhist holiday, I would respond in kind and see it as respectful to the cultural traditions of Japan. That's where I think we've made the mistake. It is believing that a legal separation of church and state makes no room for cultural traditions and historical practices: It does and it should. If this country become less Christian over time and our cultural practices change organically, then great, but the movement against "Merry Christmas" doesn't to me feel organic or natural, but stridently planned and fervently pursued.

One more thought, why is it that a lot of the same people who loudly and passionate preach respect of other people's, societies' and countries' cultures (a view I share with them) seem to not want to give American culture - with its traditions and practices - the same respect?

 

[JimWagner]

One more thought, why is it that a lot of the same people who loudly and passionate preach respect of other people's, societies' and countries' cultures (a view I share with them) seem to not want to give American culture - with its traditions and practices - the same respect?

See thread on decline of education for answers to that one.

 

[LizzieMaine]

One more thought, why is it that a lot of the same people who loudly and passionate preach respect of other people's, societies' and countries' cultures (a view I share with them) seem to not want to give American culture - with its traditions and practices - the same respect?

I think it might be because American culture is a mongrel job from start to finish -- unless you're a Passamaquoddy or a Cherokee, what it means to be an "American" is a hash made up of dozens of different bits and pieces of everybody's culture. I have Scottish, Irish, English, French, Italian, and probably Jewish blood -- what's "American" to me but a fried pastrami-and-cheddar sandwich on a baguette? There *is* no one, monolithic American culture unless it's that random mixture of other people's cultures, which is different for every person. Unless it's that Boys From Marketing vision of bland, synthesized Miracle Whip "Americanism" cooked up out of whole cloth in the twentieth century.

As for Christianity as the dominant culture of America, I think a lot depends on how you define Christianity. The concept of what "Christianity" really was was a highly divisive question for most of the first hundred and fifty years of American life, unlike today when if you tell people you're a "Christian" they assume you mean a Southern Evangelical unless you explain otherwise. In the Era it was a lot more complicated. Very few people called themselves just plain "Christians," or were willing to view others as such. it had to be qualified in some philosophical or denominational way. Methodist? Congregationalist? Episcopalian? Adventist? Trinitarian? Unitarian? Immortality? Soul-sleep? Premillenial dispensationalist? Postmillenialist? Mary Baker Eddy? Joseph Smith? Charles Taze Russell? Was Christianity best explained thru Calvinism? Wesleyanism? Catholicism?

The divisions were deep at the beginning of America, and remained deep well into the Era. The traditions and beliefs of a Boston Catholic, a Virginia Presbyterian, and a Mississippi Baptist could not possibly be further removed from one another -- the blurry outlines might be similar, but they're in no way the same, and even in the Era there were plenty of neighborhoods where the differences could get you ostracised or beaten up. Significantly, when people talked about "intermarriage" in the Era they didn't mean blacks and whites -- they meant Protestants and Catholics, and the practice was highly frowned upon from both sides. "You can't marry him, he doesn't believe in the Blessed Virgin!" "You ain't raising my grandkids to be toe-kissers!"

In such an environment you might not have had to worry about saying "Merry Christmas," but there was a whole lot more you *did* have to worry about, about whether your particular strain of "Christianity" might get you frowns on the street, ostracized in school, or thrown into jail.

 

[Fading Fast]

^^^ I agree with the above, other than to say that out of that "mongrel job" and with a big helping hand from the Boys in Marketing there were traditions that were observed in the '30s-'60s (and '70s, '80s and '90s even admits the culture helter skelter) by a meaningful part of America that are aggressively under attack today - must get nativity scenes out of center squares, must not say pledge of allegiance at school, must take Christmas out of Christmas and rebrand it "Holiday -" by the same people who preach to us about the sanctity of everyone else's culture.

And while some of those other cultures have deeper, more homogeneous roots - most cultures have a bit of this, some of that and borrowing from here and there if you are willing to go back far enough - rare is the untouched-by-outside-influence culture. And I'm not opposed to change at all - cultures evolve, but there is some aggressive hypocrisy presence in that the same people who worry about any insensitivity to another culture are gleeful to smash our mishmash American one apart because - well, that's a whole new topic - but for now it's enough to know they don't show the same sensitivity to American culture that they demand and scream for others (and I agree we should show that sensitivity to others, I just want the same sensitivity shown to ours).

 

[Trenchfriend]

Like Dr. Tyrell says (Blade Runner), profit is it, what defines our life. "More human than human".

 

[LizzieMaine]

I honestly don't remember ever seeing "public square" nativity scenes or similar public religious displays anywhere when I was growing up, so I don't have any emotional investment in such things -- if it was a common custom in other parts of the USA, it never was in mine. All we ever had in my town was a completely secularized Christmas tree at the end of the wharf, until the year some clowns in a pickup truck threw a rope around it and dragged it thru the streets after a few 'Gansetts too many. Being Methodists, we didn't even have a nativity scene in church, unless you count little kids reciting memorized pieces as part of the Sunday School pageant.

In my part of Protestant New England, it was common to drive thru a Catholic neighborhood and hear wisecracks and ridicule about "Mary on the half shell" and such things. Any sort of gaudy public display of religion was considered in poor taste, and I still feel that way about it today. It's not offensive to me so much as I find it gauche.

 

[Trenchfriend]

In East-Germany, there are just 10% christians and 90% us lovely communists. So, shut up, Jesus, and give me the dishes.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I honestly don't remember ever seeing "public square" nativity scenes or similar public religious displays anywhere when I was growing up, so I don't have any emotional investment in such things -- if it was a common custom in other parts of the USA, it never was in mine. All we ever had in my town was a completely secularized Christmas tree at the end of the wharf, until the year some clowns in a pickup truck threw a rope around it and dragged it thru the streets after a few 'Gansetts too many. Being Methodists, we didn't even have a nativity scene in church, unless you count little kids reciting memorized pieces as part of the Sunday School pageant.

In my part of Protestant New England, it was common to drive thru a Catholic neighborhood and hear wisecracks and ridicule about "Mary on the half shell" and such things. Any sort of gaudy public display of religion was considered in poor taste, and I still feel that way about it today. It's not offensive to me so much as I find it gauche.

Even growing up in the "Bible Belt" we didn't have those kinds of public displays. Churches might have something, and people were generally very open about their faith (religion wasn't a secret, it something everyone talked about), but there wasn't the "woohoo, look at me" in your face that seems so prevalent today. We certainly didn't take selfies in church to post on Facebook.

 

[LizzieMaine]

...but there wasn't the "woohoo, look at me" in your face that seems so prevalent today. We certainly didn't take selfies in church to post on Facebook.

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." -- Matt. 6:5