So trivial, yet it really ticks you off.

[LizzieMaine]

Interesting as heck and reflects something most of us do (if we are honest with ourselves) and that is constantly revise our emotional memories. Check back with me in ten or twenty years to see if I am then waxing nostalgically for the "magic of old Giant stadium."

I await any time now the publication of a coffee table book celebrating the good ole days of the Patriots at Schaefer Stadium.

 

[tonyb]

There's an excellent book about the ballpark situation in Philadelphia prior to CB Park -- "To Everything A Season: Shibe Park and Urban Philadelphia. 1909-1976" by urban historian Bruce Kucklick. This isn't a sports book or a nostalgia book -- it's a serious study of the rise and fall of Shibe Park/Connie Mack Stadium as a neighborhood institution, and the circumstances which led to its abandonment and replacement by Veterans Stadium. It's probably the best book ever written on ballparks and what they mean to their communities.

What's apropos this discussion is the way the press and pubic responded when the old park was replaced by the new one -- there was almost universal acclaim for the Vet, and universal disdain for the "warehouse like" environment of the old park, with its "ushers who looked like fugitives from a chain gang" and its "dangerous 'fifty-cents-to-watch-your-car-mister" neighborhood. Phillies broadcaster Richie Ashburn, who played most of his career at Shibe Park, is quoted as saying that moving to the new place was like "moving from the sh*thouse to the penthouse."

And yet twenty years later, Ashburn waxed nostalgic for Kucklick about the "atmosphere" of the old stadium, and how much more character it had than its replacement. Certainly the actual atmosphere of the old place hadn't changed any in twenty years -- it was demolished in 1976 -- but the memories of that atmosphere certainly had. Once the newness of the Vet wore off, Philadelphia fans could see there wasn't a whole lot of "there" there.

Several years ago I went through a period of study of early baseball and the factors outside of the game itself that influenced its development. I recall one tome that focused on new construction technologies early in the 20th century, which made larger structures safer and more economically feasible. Every big-league team built a new concrete and steel stadium, which, to the best if my knowledge, were all still structurally sound when they were demolished several decades later.

Further stoking what was already an avid interest in old ballparks was the pending demolition of old Comiskey, which was then the oldest park in the majors.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Several years ago I went through a period of study of early baseball and the factors outside of the game itself that influenced its development. I recall one tome that focused on new construction technologies early in the 20th century, which made larger structures safer and more economically feasible. Every big-league team built a new concrete and steel stadium, which, to the best if my knowledge, were all still structurally sound when they were demolished several decades later.

Further stoking what was already an avid interest in old ballparks was the pending demolition of old Comiskey, which was then the oldest park in the majors.

I remember reading an interview with Harry Avirom, the New York demolition specialist whose company took down both Ebbets Field and the Polo Grounds. He was quite clear in his statement that, contrary to the public mouthings of O'Malley and Stoneham, both parks were still in perfectly viable condition when they were torn down. He added that the Polo Grounds was especially well-built, and "could have stood for a thousand years."

 

[tonyb]

^^^^
Roman arenas and amphitheaters built a couple thousand years ago are still in use. A few of them, anyway.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Another interesting thing in that Avirom interview was his remembrance of how he -- a lifelong Dodger fan who hated having to do the job he was doing -- basically opened the gates of Ebbets Field, during the demolition, to anyone who wanted to come in and take anything they could carry away. Seats, railings, fixtures, bricks, jars of soil, and even chunks of sod were taken away free of charge by people from all over Brooklyn who wanted keepsakes of the old place.

It wasn't like today with the "OMG THISLL BE WORTH A LOT MONEY SOMEDAY" mentality. These weren't memorablia dealers or collectors -- they were ordinary people grieving the loss of something they had loved, and wanted something tangible to hold onto along with their memories. It's heartbreaking that the only one to show any sensitivity to them in the whole sad business was the man in charge of tearing the place down.

 

[tonyb]

Yeah, it's gotten to the point that a more or less mentally competent adult would have to acknowledge he is being played for a chump.

Pro sports' very lifeblood is the loyalty of the fans. When a team pulls up stakes it's akin to the middle-aged physician who dumps the wife who put him through medical school for some hot little number 20 years her junior. Makes you hope the young hottie gives him a heart atrack and he expires atop her.

 

[HudsonHawk]

The Astrodome, unlike so many other stadia of its era, is historically and architecturally significant. Can't say that I've kept up with its ongoing saga, but I'd hate to see it go.

Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die.

This is basically how voters in Harris County feel. They refuse to have it demolished, but also refuse to pay for its upkeep and/or preservation. So it sits and rots. It's sad, really. It *is* architecturaly significant and deserves to be treated better.

 

[HudsonHawk]

You need look only toward Atlanta, where twenty-year-old Turner Field is playing out its last season and the Braves are salivating over the new park going up in the suburbs.

In somewhat defense of the Braves, they lucked into Turner Field, which was privately funded, first as the Olympic venue and then converted using profits from the Olympics. They happened to be in the right place at the right time.

As for the new stadium, I've been in Atlanta this week and failed to find anyone who is in favor of it. It's going to be WAY out in the burbs, and the people who live in the area are steaming mad about the extra traffic and congestion it's going to cause. The people who live on the opposite side of town hate it too because it'll be a two hour trip. I guess the Braves like the naming rights revenue, but other than that, it's setting up to be a colossal failure from a fan perspective.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Yeah, it's gotten to the point that a more or less mentally competent adult would have to acknowledge he is being played for a chump.

Pro sports' very lifeblood is the loyalty of the fans. When a team pulls up stakes it's akin to the middle-aged physician who dumps the wife who put him through medical school for some hot little number 20 years her junior. Makes you hope the young hottie gives him a heart atrack and he expires atop her.

I'm not sure why you think that being a sports fan makes one a chump. I'm certainly aware of the economic side of pro sports and yet still make a decision to spend my entertainment dollars on it. I don't think that necessarily makes my rationale flawed or my decision unreasonable or me any less mentally competent.

 

[MisterCairo]

The NHL's Ottawa Senators re-entered the league with a new arena, then called the Corel Centre, in the far-western "burbs" of Ottawa, so far out there it was essentially an oasis.

They are now considering a new arena - in the city centre and all but neighbouring Parliament Hill.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Maine's pro hockey team, the Portland Pirates of the AHL, skipped town at the end of last season with no notice and three years remaining on a five year lease -- leaving the city of Portland with a newly-renovated civic center, rebuilt at public expense after long negotiations with the team, and no long-term tenant. Real classy. I hope the good people of Springfield Massachusetts know what a fine, honorable organization they're getting.

 

[tonyb]

I'm not sure why you think that being a sports fan makes one a chump. I'm certainly aware of the economic side of pro sports and yet still make a decision to spend my entertainment dollars on it. I don't think that necessarily makes my rationale flawed or my decision unreasonable or me any less mentally competent.

There are worse things than being a chump. Sports fandom is generally irrational. So are most matters of the heart. That's a major part of sports' appeal -- a person can get him- or herself absorbed in a matter that he or she knows to be if very little actual consequence.

I admit to enjoying pro football on TV. It's a good show. I also can't help but watch a boxing match. In both cases I know that the participants are risking serious damage to themselves, and that the people profiting the most from it (not the people on the field or in the ring) are fully aware of that as well. Does that make me complicit? Yup, sure does. But I try not to delude myself.

 

[HudsonHawk]

There are worse things than being a chump. Sports fandom is generally irrational. So are most matters of the heart. That's a major part of sports' appeal -- a person can get him- or herself absorbed in a matter that he or she knows to be if very little actual consequence.

I admit to enjoying pro football on TV. It's a good show. I also can't help but watch a boxing match. In both cases I know that the participants are risking serious damage to themselves, and that the people profiting the most from it are fully aware of that as well. Does that make me complicit? Yup, sure does. But I try not to delude myself.

That's just it, I'm not deluded by it all. I'm fully aware of how it works. I choose to follow anyway.

 

[tonyb]

Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die.

This is basically how voters in Harris County feel. They refuse to have it demolished, but also refuse to pay for its upkeep and/or preservation. So it sits and rots. It's sad, really. It *is* architecturaly significant and deserves to be treated better.

The problem when new facilities of these sorts are built is what becomes of the existing ones.

The Seattle area has more large arenas than it has any practical use for. There are only so many pop music acts and such that can fill a 10,000-plus seat venue. And without an NBA or NHL club, those once (not so long ago) state-of-the-art facilities sit empty way too many nights per year.

The prevailing talk at present is that if the city is to lure another NBA and/or NHL team, an all-new arena would have to be built. So what then becomes of Key Arena? And the Tacoma Dome? I'd bet they'd lose even more bookings to the new place. So more white elephants.

 

[tonyb]

That's just it, I'm not deluded by it all. I'm fully aware of how it works. I choose to follow anyway.

My objection is that those who choose not to follow pay for the hustle along with those who do. I suspect that most followers also find it objectionable.

A positive development is the growing chorus of "enough" coming from voices historically among the biggest rooters for the games. I'm hearing more of this "let them pay their own way" talk from sportswriters and elected office holders (including the president) and even from the occasional athlete, Richard Sherman among them. It's no surprise that team ownership is not among those voices.

 

[HudsonHawk]

My objection is that those who choose not to follow pay for the hustle along with those who do. I suspect that most followers also find it objectionable.

The same can be said for almost any spending of public monies, from transportation to public schools. Not everyone who pays taxes will utilize every service funded by them. I know a lot of childless who complain to no end about having to pay school taxes. Personally, I recognize its good for the public at large, at least in theory, for lots of reasons and don't mind paying for something I'll never use. I think pro sports teams bring more to local communities than people will often admit.

On a side note, we make visitors fund our stadiums through taxes on hotels and rental cars. I thought most did the same, but perhaps not.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Clickbait articles that are so heavily laden with ads that it actually slows down the page.

 

[GHT]

For some reason, our society seems to get more incensed when businessman collude, than when gov't officials screw them; I personally get even more offended when gov't officials aid and abet the corrupt businessman as they are directly paid by taxpayers to protect taxpayers. All of them - the corrupt businessman and the corrupt "civil servants -" belong in hell.

That is such a good point and I would like to add a further comment but I know that it will stray into the political arena. In general terms, it's about the way multi-national corporations move their money around the globe to avoid paying their proper taxes in each country where they have traded to make that money. The political aspect comes from the collusion of politicians.

I know a lot of childless who complain to no end about having to pay school taxes. Personally, I recognize its good for the public at large, at least in theory, for lots of reasons and don't mind paying for something I'll never use.

Agreed, I might not have children but it's important for those born into the society in which I live to be properly educated. Who knows, one of them might just be the future surgeon to replace my worn out hip.

 

[Fading Fast]

In somewhat defense of the Braves, they lucked into Turner Field, which was privately funded, first as the Olympic venue and then converted using profits from the Olympics. They happened to be in the right place at the right time.

As for the new stadium, I've been in Atlanta this week and failed to find anyone who is in favor of it. It's going to be WAY out in the burbs, and the people who live in the area are steaming mad about the extra traffic and congestion it's going to cause. The people who live on the opposite side of town hate it too because it'll be a two hour trip. I guess the Braves like the naming rights revenue, but other than that, it's setting up to be a colossal failure from a fan perspective.

How does this happen in a democracy and on a local issue where an angry electorate should be able to punish the politicians at the next election? Or was the decision buried deep enough down in the bureaucracy and away from an elected official that tying it to one is hard?

 

[Fading Fast]

Maine's pro hockey team, the Portland Pirates of the AHL, skipped town at the end of last season with no notice and three years remaining on a five year lease -- leaving the city of Portland with a newly-renovated civic center, rebuilt at public expense after long negotiations with the team, and no long-term tenant. Real classy. I hope the good people of Springfield Massachusetts know what a fine, honorable organization they're getting.

If the team is now playing in Maine, doesn't Portland have at least a shot of going after them legally for the three years remaining on the lease?