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Slim waists are always in

Matthew Dalton

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Slim waists are always in
Wednesday Jan 10 14:42 AEDT
Feminine beauty has been celebrated across the ages, but an enduring belief is this: what constitutes attractiveness in a woman cannot be pinned down, it depends on the prevailing fashion, culture or ethnicity and on the eye of the beholder.

For instance, in Victorian England, a tiny, puckered mouth was the zenith of pulchritude.

Today, the rosebud look has been replaced by what has been called the trout look, as women in Western cultures strive to make their mouths look as wide and full-lipped as possible.

In many societies, the focus of secondary erogenous zones has roamed over ankles, necks and knees and makeup and hairstyles change according to the mode.


The desired female morphology has shifted too, driven in part by prosperity and the social advancement of women. In the 1950s, Marilyn Monroe was the template of feminine beauty; today, she would be encouraged to sign up at Weightwatchers.

So it would seem that the "beauty standard" does not exist -- that there is no eternal benchmark, only a chaotically whizzing merry-go-round.

Not so for evolutionary psychologists.

For them, fashion is a fluffy cover for a force that is deeper, remorseless and unchanging, as old and enduring as our genes: the Darwinian drive of survival and genetic fitness.

In an innovative test of these rival hypotheses, scientists at the University of Texas at Austin and at Harvard University trawled through three centuries of English-language literature and through three Asian literary classics dating back nearly two thousand years.

Their goal: Which parts of the woman's body were praised as beautiful by writers across the ages?

Their sources were a website, Literature Online, for English literature from the 16th, 17th and 18th century; Chinese sixth dynasty palace poetry (from the fourth to the sixth century AD) and two ancient Indian epics, the Mahabharata and the Ramayana, from the first to third century AD.

Breasts, buttocks and thighs, the primary erogenous zones, predictably featured large in these descriptions.

But a slim waist trumped them all.

In English literature, a glowing description of a narrow waist (a waist "as little as a wand", "beholden to her lovely waist" and so on) showed up 65 times.

That compared to 16 references for romantic description of breasts, 12 for thighs and a mere two apiece for hips and buttocks.

Before anyone cries fattism, the literature was studded with romantic tributes to plumpness but relatively few to slimness.

But what counted, plump woman or slim, was the relativeness narrowness of the waist. There was not a single evocation of beauty which said the object of veneration had a bulging tummy.

In the Asian works, the slim waist was even more adored, although there was no flattering reference to plump beauty.

Narrow waistedness scored a massive 35 references in the two Indian epics, while the other body parts garnered a total of 26. In the Chinese poetry, the narrow waist was evoked 17 times, while breasts, buttocks, hips and thighs got zero, and there was a solitary romantic reference to a woman's legs.

The study, which appears in Proceedings of the Royal Society B, a British journal, says these references show that a slim waist is an object of desire that spans time and cultures.

Why so?

The answer, suggest the authors, is that a narrow waist is a sign of strong health and fertility. Men instinctively assess a woman's waist for its potential for successful reproduction and thus furthering their own genes.

Modern research has established a link between abdominal obesity and decreased oestrogen, reduced fecundity and increased risk of major diseases.

But "even without the benefit of modern medical knowledge, both British and Asian writers intuited the biological link between health and beauty," say authors, Devendra Singh, Peter Renn and Adrian Singh.

"In spite of variation in the description of beauty, the marker of health and fertility, a small waist, has always been an invariant symbol of feminine beauty."
 

Paisley

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A thin waist makes a woman's bust and hips look bigger; I think the idea that it makes her look more fertile is a bit of a stretch.

I've heard that beauty is usually equated with good health. Hence, good skin, good teeth, good hair, etc. are important to good looks.
 

scotrace

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Baron Kurtz said:
The last Equinox i saw before i left the UK was suggesting that the wide shoulder, thin waist, wide-ish hip (that is to say, athletic) look was what women were looking for . . . hard wired into the brain, apparently.

bk


That's a concept that I find fascinating and probably truthful. There are certain things each sex looks for in the other in terms of an ideal mate (who can likely produce healthy children and thus obey the evloutionary imperative) that are deeply rooted in the reptilian brain. Is Desmond Morris still required reading in high schools?
 
Don't know if he ever was . . .

Yes, apparently the women are looking for the stacked double inverted triangle male physique. wide shoulders tapering to a thin waist, wide hips tapering to thin ankles.

I seem to remember something about foreheads as well. Men should have prominent foreheads, or something along those lines, to be maximally attractive.

bk
 

Ruby Slippers

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Lady Day said:
The article seems to point to mainly literary reference of beauty, with a rather small window.

All I can say to them is Venus of Willendorf.

http://witcombe.sbc.edu/willendorf/willendorfdiscovery.html


LD

Exactly! I was going to mention that if you take an art history course, you will see the many different trends in beauty throughout the ages. Not all were limited to tiny waists. In fact, there are many images of idealized women who are pleasantly plump, and they are absolutely lovely.
 

reetpleat

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And you all thought I liked double breasted suits, pleated tapered pants and padded shoulders because it was a vintage look. Hah.

I am a little dubious. the inclusion of a few asian and indian sources does not diminish the obviously eurocentric or westocentric slant of the research.

Not to say it is wrong.

I was reminded of sir mixalot. He praises big butts, but mentions a slim waist as part of it.

I do agree with whoever mentioned that a slim waist will accentuate breasts and hips, thus making them look bigger.
 

Elaina

One Too Many
I like tall men. That's about it as far as what I have to have in a man.

I've never dated a man under 6 foot. My husband is 6'3", the tallest was 7'12", my son is going to be lucky to be my height.

It should also be noted that while a woman may have been "plump", the slim waist was accomplished with a corset, which in and of itself has long been considered a sexual object.

I'm gonna run away now.
 

mysterygal

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You mean the sweaty beer-gut guy is unapealing?!:p
This all makes perfect sense, what is hard-wired into us as desirable. But I do find certain cultures have different takes on this. Even though Sir Mix a lot like the big butt with a small waist, a lot of black men seem to still prefer a 'thick' lady, while most caucasians tend to go for 'slimmer'...I've always wondered why that was [huh]
 

reetpleat

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mysterygal said:
You mean the sweaty beer-gut guy is unapealing?!:p
This all makes perfect sense, what is hard-wired into us as desirable. But I do find certain cultures have different takes on this. Even though Sir Mix a lot like the big butt with a small waist, a lot of black men seem to still prefer a 'thick' lady, while most caucasians tend to go for 'slimmer'...I've always wondered why that was [huh]

At risk of offending (none intended) I always thought it was due to the fact that most african american women are just thicker built. I am talking about those who have no fat on them but thicker waists or bones if you will. But that might just be that it is more seen in media and such while white women only make it as models or actresses if they are slim.

It seems to be intuitively evident that there is a certain amount of conditioning that has nothing to do with genetics.

African Americans and Mexicans for example, do not seem to mind, and actually like women who have a little more meat on their bones.

In fact, ten years ago, most actresses were not near as skinny. As I understand it, it has to do with the use of actesses by the fashion community recently. Models are chosen for their size because clothes tend to hang better on them, but then actresses now are being used to display designer clothes at events and such, so they feel the need to compete, and lose weight. This in turn drives the public to see that as normal and acceptable. It is a big problem for hollywood. the article I saw showed several actresses who looked great ten years ago and are now twenty pounds skinnier. They are spending hours a day just trying to keep their weight down to compete with those starving models

the ironic thing is that while many women look to them to emulate, I don't think men care near as much. A fashion model would never make it in playboy. Too skinny and bony and no breasts.

Why designers have gotten so obsessed with skinny I don't know. It is bizarre. I can't imagine a woman wanting to buy a dress because it looks good hanging on a concentraton camp survivor. Hurrah for the Spanish for restricting the weight (under) of models used in their fashion shows.
 

Lady Day

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Elaina said:
Because designers are lazy. When I'm in classes I desin for fluffy, plus sized women. I get a ton of flack from my instructor and classmates.

And the cost of fabric, it's just economical to make it for a toothpick.


Here here!
Designers want the people to display their clothes, not sculpt the clothing to the human form. I miss that.

And to comment on reetpleat's quote of Mr. Mix-A-Lot, cultures all over the world have different ascetics of beauty.

In parts of South Africa, women wrap large drapes around their waist to make their bums looks bigger.

In most cultures an ample woman meant her husband could provide for her, she was healthy enough to bare children, she could keep you warm, etc. It was expected, celebrated, to have a woman who was ample.

Wow, so off topic, sorry.

But the article does have a western slant to it, one with extreme body modification (not just tattoos or piercing as many cultures did/do).

LD
 

Elaina

One Too Many
Yeah, well, go into any plus size store and get good clothes. It's nearly impossible, although there are a few. My mom's extremely fluffy, as is my best friend, and they both can't find anything but mumu's half the time.

Sorry, this is my soapbox. A fluffy woman has the right to wear and look as pretty as an anorexic one.
 

MrBern

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Paisley said:
A thin waist makes a woman's bust and hips look bigger; I think the idea that it makes her look more fertile is a bit of a stretch.

I've heard that beauty is usually equated with good health. Hence, good skin, good teeth, good hair, etc. are important to good looks.

Actually I saw a PBS/BBC special(Secrets of the Sexes) that did mention for picking out a mate, the thin waist was a perception of fertility.
And that in the study, no mater what the woman's physical preferences, whn it came down to actually meeting real men, HEIGHT was the hands down factor.
 

mysterygal

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MrBern said:
Actually I saw a PBS/BBC special(Secrets of the Sexes) that did mention for picking out a mate, the thin waist was a perception of fertility.
And that in the study, no mater what the woman's physical preferences, whn it came down to actually meeting real men, HEIGHT was the hands down factor.
lol brings back a bad memory of dating a boy in high school. I'm pretty darn short, but this kid was a lot shorter..I'd have nightmares every night that I'd have to carry him around like a toddler, when we broke up, the nightmares stopped:rolleyes: so yeah, after that men that I dated had to be at least a little taller than me, which isn't all that difficult since I'm just a little over 5'1.
For me it's the shoulder, I absolutely love broad shoulders on a man! Also the hands, he's gotta have nice hands (this has actually always been the first thing I look at!)
 
MrBern said:
Actually I saw a PBS/BBC special(Secrets of the Sexes) that did mention for picking out a mate, the thin waist was a perception of fertility.
And that in the study, no mater what the woman's physical preferences, whn it came down to actually meeting real men, HEIGHT was the hands down factor.

this was the same one i saw. Thin waist gives the perception of wide hips: One of the critical factors in bearing children.

bk
 

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