Sleeve buttons

[Matt Deckard]

This was brought up in the Show us yours suits thread and is a subject that needs to be addressed.

Generally in the earlier day's you'd see 2 buttons spaced a bit apart, or three or four close or touching. Rarely at all (even on the custom suits in the 30's and 40's) would you see them functional.
The 1970's is where you see four buttons become the standard, and working buttonholes start to be thought of as a sign of a better rmade jacket (this is only a sign that the jacket has working button holes on the sleave and not that the jacket is better made).

On some suits from the golden era you will fins one button, cuffed wrists with no buttons, turned up wrists with one button and a few other variations... though more common in the 1930's I think was the three to two buttons.

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

I am not sure what the obsession with working buttonholes is exactly. It is a nice touch for a bespoke jacket, but they are really more trouble then they are generally worth. When I think of features I would really want to find on ready-to-wear jackets working buttonholes are about the last thing on the list since there is never any reason to use them.

I think things like functional pockets, functioning bouteniere holes/loops and the like are more important. Not to mention cut and quality of construction.

 

[Harry Lime]

God is in the details.

Working button holes are to non-working button holes as two buttons are to three, vested suits are to non-vested, canvased are to to fused; partially a function of function, partially a function of taste. Therefore there's no reason to dismiss them anymore than any of the former traits. They do have somewhat of a function and ultimately you choose them or not for taste, budget or availability.

Working button holes are generally (not exclusively) another subtle sign that a suit is custom made. The first tip will be that the suit fits better but there are a myriad of details (the irregularities of hand stitching, the type of lining, etc) including working button holes that are there to add to the effect. Imagine yourself at a cocktail party being admired in a custom suit by a young lady. "What is it about that suit?," as she looks you over head to toe. The more she looks, the more details she observes - like the working buttons. It's all part of the effect.

Working button holes are functionally correct as well because if there aren't holes why have any buttons at all? Where does one draw the line between necessity and adornment? If you don't miss the holes why would you miss the buttons? Sounds like your designing a suit from 1950's Russia. Maybe it doesn't even need lapels.

Another reason - the working button holes are part of a custom made sleeve. A 40 reg off the rack has standardized arms. Does everyone who wears a 40 reg have the same size arms or hands? No. Custom addresses this. If you have larger hands and arms your sleeves will be a little larger and have a larger opening. The working buttons help control the sleeves, meaning your shirt sleeves. As your custom shirts will follow similar size issues, the working buttons act to allow enough linen to drop and show your cuffs.

Working buuton holes were common in custom suits of the '30's and '40's of a certain quality, it's custom suits of the that era that are uncommon now (as they were then, in a sense.) While custom tailors were abundant as a rule then only the "fine tailors" generally in larger cities followed the button hole mantra. There were tailors of other classes that didn't always do this, perhaps these are the suits you're seeing. Even my working class (and very tall) Grandfather got custom suits in the day, but they were from a tailor on 3rd street not Saville Row. No button holes but decent suits, the prices from this tailor weren't that much higher than factory made.

As for today, if you spend the money for a custom made suit why would you not get all the adornments of quality? A fine tailor will insist on making them, you'd be a fool to stop him.

Do you absolutely need them? No. Most people wear off-the-rack suits and are fine with it. Others wear custom of a certain quality and are fine with it. If you want the best of the best and are willing to pay for it, the suit will have working button holes for the reasons discussed. If it's not for you it's not for you, it isn't "for" the vast number of masses. Which is another reason some insist on it.

Harry Lime

 

[MattC]

One button unbuttoned

Some gentlemen used to keep the bottom sleeve button unbuttoned, a less subtle way of making sure folks who noticed saw that he was wearing a high end custom suit. I confess to doing it myself now and again.

 

[nightandthecity]

I've heard it said - and it may be pure folklore - that sleeve buttons were originally introduced on midshipmens' jackets in the Royal Navy to stop them wiping their noses on their sleeves! Sounds like a myth to me, but if true it would explain why there is this strong tradition of making them nonfunctional!

 

[Solomon Kane]

I had heard that also.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Ah, but look where those buttons were. Not on the 'outside' of the sleeve. No-siree. The men would be wiping their noses on the top and body-wards surfaces of the sleeve. Try it. This is still evident on the 'Bonny Prince Charlie" jacket of the Scottish pipe bands and regiments. Note sleeve button position. If you wiped your nose on the top or inside of the sleeve it would hurt:

bk

 

[wednesday]

I'm having a suit made right now. The sleeve buttons (5) will be functional. I'm also going to havea functional ticket pocket . These things aren't necessary but why not? The suit isn't even really necessary, i could wear Levi's, a t-shirt and a baseball cap (backwards).

 

[Mr. Rover]

I just got my first bespoke suit made in Hong Kong at the famous Sam's Tailors. The first two cuff buttons are working, and the second two don't. It still works- I can roll my sleeves up.

ray

 

[Matt Deckard]

I just got my first bespoke suit made in Hong Kong at the famous Sam's Tailors. The first two cuff buttons are working, and the second two don't. It still works- I can roll my sleeves up.

ray

The reason for only two being functional and not all four is so the sleeve is still dynamic and not static in its length. If the jacket had all four button holes cut the only way to alter the jacket would be through the shoulder.

 

[Harry Lime]

Well, I don't know...

The reason for only two being functional and not all four is so the sleeve is still dynamic and not static in its length. If the jacket had all four button holes cut the only way to alter the jacket would be through the shoulder.

On a true bespoke suit the button holes aren't cut and the buttons sewn until after the sleeves are fitted. A bespoke suit usually requires at least three fittings so the tailor doesn't run into this problem. My guess is, in this instance, the two fixed buttons are just a cost/time saving means from the tailor. If you truly ordered bespoke you would be within your rights to bring it back and ask that all the button holes be working button holes. Maybe this tailor thinks you're just a kid who doesn't know the difference and won't ask for the correct fix. I would.

Harry Lime

 

[Matt Deckard]

The reason they do two instead of four at some Saville row tailor shops is because the suit does not always end its life on the original owner even when the suit is bespoke. At least that's what they say.

I myself preffer all four working.

 

[herringbonekid]

The reason they do two instead of four at some Saville row tailor shops is because the suit does not always end its life on the original owner even when the suit is bespoke. At least that's what they say.

who are these men of such generous nature that (while having a meticulously measured expensive garment made for themselves) they worry about the person who might next own the suit ?

working buttonholes are just an anachronistic sign of quality inherited from a now defunct purpose...

"The reason is that if a gentleman was in the presence of a lady he could use the buttons on the sleeve of his jacket to roll back his sleeves and wash his hands without having to take his jacket off and risk offending her"

quote from.....
http://www.englishcut.com/archives/000025.html

 

[Matt Deckard]

God forbid she should see my shirt sleeves.

 

[Mr. Rover]

I think this particular tailor realized my friend and I were only 16 years old and realized our arms and legs would grow slightly faster than the rest of our bodies.
If you've heard of him, he is Sam's Tailor in Hong Kong.
Just as a note, none of the button holes were cut until after the 2nd fitting (which was all the time we had considering our trip was less than a week long.) I had to argue with my tailor to widen the button stance on my dbl breasted suit. He had them in this really thin modern look that was not what I was going for. I had to show him pictures of Bogart's "Maltese Falcon" suit to show him how the proportions should be. I also had to argue to make my pants hit my belly button. That one took until the end of the 2nd fitting.
Hong Kong tailors are amazing in that they can draw the patterns and fit in a first fitting in the day you order it- we were measured around 3, had afternoon tea, and then went back for our first fitting. They work around the clock. We had our suits in 3 days- the day before New Year's Eve.

Ray

 

[Harry Lime]

I'm sure it's very nice.

Sounds like you did your homework and you have a suit you're very happy with. I'm sure it looks great. Your interest and dedication is impressive and you are one stylish and mature 16 year old. Your parents should be proud.

Harry Lime

 

[MattC]

Taiwan tailors?

Ray--

I assume you went to Hong Kong because there aren'tgood, inexpensive tailors in Taipei (I ask because I'll be there in a few weeks).

BTW, I have several bespoke suits made for a friend who died and left them to me in his will. The working buttons have been a challenge since his arms were longer than mine. The two button solution still seems smart to me.

Matt