Show us your SHOES !!!

[Isshinryu101]

Fake bentivegna is easier to tell because if you can see those side stitches on the inside of the shoe, then it's fake. If it's real, it's sewn into the insole feather. Sometimes you can see dimpling on the insole where the stitches are tight.

Fake norv can be proven by pulling the parts of the sole apart. In real norv, the stitch goes thru the uppers, through the topsole, then thru the bottom sole. This is why it is impossible to properly re-sole without the last.

Here is the Vass goyser, which is the same construction as a bentivegna



same as this



AND, the same as those black split toes you got from me (and the tan pair I still have)

All marketed as bentivegna/ goyser

In all examples, the strip of leather shown is the welt, which is sewn thru the side of the uppers and into the feather of the insole. The down-stitch goes into the topsole.

Sutor Norv



Santoni Norv with decorative braided side stitch.



Santoni norv with no side stitch



Enzo Bonafe norv



Lidfort norv



bettanin norv



Norv NEVER has a strip of leather outside the uppers. For all these makers, as well as the rest of the Italians (and Vass), the welt on the outside is marketed as Bentivegna (and goyser for Vass).

LOL. I love VINTAGE and I LOVE Norvegese/ Bentivegna!!! The Italian makers make the best shoes, IMO.

 

[The Shooman]

Fake bentivegna is easier to tell because if you can see those side stitches on the inside of the shoe, then it's fake. If it's real, it's sewn into the insole feather. Sometimes you can see dimpling on the insole where the stitches are tight.

Fake norv can be proven by pulling the parts of the sole apart. In real norv, the stitch goes thru the uppers, through the topsole, then thru the bottom sole. This is why it is impossible to properly re-sole without the last.

Here is the Vass goyser, which is the same construction as a bentivegna



same as this



AND, the same as those black split toes you got from me (and the tan pair I still have)

All marketed as bentivegna/ goyser

In all examples, the strip of leather shown is the welt, which is sewn thru the side of the uppers and into the feather of the insole. The down-stitch goes into the topsole.

Sutor Norv



Santoni Norv with decorative braided side stitch.



Santoni norv with no side stitch



Enzo Bonafe norv



Lidfort norv



bettanin norv



Norv NEVER has a strip of leather outside the uppers. For all these makers, as well as the rest of the Italians (and Vass), the welt on the outside is marketed as Bentivegna (and goyser for Vass).

LOL. I love VINTAGE and I LOVE Norvegese/ Bentivegna!!! The Italian makers make the best shoes, IMO.

I agree with everything you have said in those two posts, but l will not agree on the issue saying my Branchini is fake bentivegna. We will have to agree to disagree on that point. I also disagree on the below point and true my best to explain why.

You say = "Norv NEVER has a strip of leather outside the uppers".

I say = that is not always true either. Why? Because the norvegese out-turned upper can have a rand sitting on top with a stitch going through the rand and the upper and outsole and midsole. BUT please note: this is very different to bentivegna construction which has a proper functioning L welt (as opposed to bonwelt) along side the upper which is stitched to the upper and insole and also the upper to outsole to midsole. See...the norvegese doesn't have the same strip of leather to upper to insole stitch, nor the L strip of leather as you know.

Note: when l say norv has a strip of leather against the upper l am NOT talking about in Vass style or the usual ltalian bentivegna, l am talking about the outurned upper spread over the midsole covered by the rand. Like in the norv diagram but with a rand sitting along the bottom, other times no rand can be used. I recall Dopey from S.F being asked whether he wanted norvegese with or without a welt, but in this case the shoemaker used a lose term for welt to mean bonwelt.
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=norvegese+construction+pictures&client=opera&hs=f63&channel=suggest&tbm=isch&imgil=1S8E1Ru-pkttDM%3A%3BrYs4N-1ufy8G_M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.scarpedibianco.com%252Fart-of-the-shoe&source=iu&pf=m&fir=1S8E1Ru-pkttDM%3A%2CrYs4N-1ufy8G_M%2C_&usg=__V1j4FP-C_qn4A1UOvDm59cRgACQ=&biw=1680&bih=925&ved=0ahUKEwiQrIGO9ebLAhWBrhQKHWFdDSsQyjcIMw&ei=tP36VpCCMoHdUuG6tdgC#imgrc=UOF1bSsVaZhmAM:

 

[The Shooman]

I still don't like the term bentivegna used to describe Vass construction. I prefer to describe Vass construction as a fancy version of reverse welted (goiser) with a hand carved feather and an inturned upper. I like to call true bentivegna as a shoe with an out-turned upper, and even without a feather. I know some ltalians call reverse welted shoes bentivegna construction, but l don't like this because the usual reverse welted uses an in-turned upper. I like to specialise in more detail to describe every different construction. As some say, bentivegna is just norvegese with a welt...l like this.

Even using the term goiser and reverse welted could be made to be different versions of a similar thing. How?

Reverse welted = usually, welt to upper to feathered insole + welt to midsole to outsole (2 stitch)
Goiser = often, welt to upper to feathered insole + welt to midsole + welt to midsole to outsole (3 stitch)

If l had my way l would use very specific definitions to cover all the variations. I think far too many makers use generic terms to describe shoe construction, but l like to differentiate between what l see as the differences between typical reverse welted, bentivegna, goiser etc. They may be variations of the same thing, but they can also be different.

I certainly don't like this shoemaker's definition of bentivegna, l roll my eyes and scoff at such things.
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...&ei=Dwb7VsXBGYiKU6X5q2g#imgrc=ZOEn9nGTx7T0MM:

The old masters of Santoni and Lattanzi basically seem to say that Bentivegna is a construction that very few makers do in the world, so it is certainly way different to reverse welted. Can be tricky to repair too according to my maker who makes in a similar way without a feather.

 

[The Shooman]

I LOVE Norvegese/ Bentivegna!!! The Italian makers make the best shoes, IMO.

Yes, l LOVE the norvegese and bentivegna like very little else.
Yes, the ltalian rtw shoes are probably the best for quality and construction techniques. LOVE the ltalian norvegese styles. My Santoni bentivegna constructed shoes are better quality than Vass and St Crispins without doubt, and naturally they blow Lobb and Edward Green rtw etc completely out of the water.

I will admit l am a big fan of the close cut bevelled waist of an English bespoke shoo, but am a massive fan of Santoni norvegese/bentivegna/hand welted and Lattanzi....complete real deal shoos.

I am looking at saving for a pair of Lattanzi bentivegna. Very pricey, but would be well worth it!

 

[LuvMyMan]

Thank you both for this exchange, lots of technical information well worth reading.

 

[The Shooman]

Yes, Isshy and l love our welts and stitches.

What l would love to know is if there are any hand inseamed shoes with a hand carved feather that have dimples on the insoles. The J&M handmades, Cleverley bespokes, Vass, St Crispins etc have hand carved feathers but they do not have dimpled insoles, BUT the Santoni norvegese and bentivegna's have no feather and do have dimpled insoles. My Chinese made Marlboro handmade also has a dimpled insole and doesn't appear to have a feather either, and my local Pisa bespokes made by John also had a dimpled insole with NO feather. Could it be the only the featherless shoes have dimpled insoles when inseamed by hand? (Naturally a machine couldn't inseam by hand with no feather present).

A dimpled insole on my Santoni norvegese (haha, it is an old pic l made years ago)

The dimpled insole of my Chinesze made Marlboro handmades

The dimpled insole of my Pisa bespoke made without a feather.

Believe me, the dimples are much more prominent than the pictures show. I love nothing more than a good bunch of dimples on me insoles.

 

[The Shooman]

Isshy have you seen the Santoni norwegian constructed shoes without the dimples? They can look identicle to a simple inseamed norvegese except they have a feather. If you could tell me you saw a norvegese Santoni look-a-like without dimples then l may have the answer to my question about dimples and feathers. Some people have said the dimples are caused by the inseaming pulling on the feather, but l say NO WAY!

I do feel almost convinced that featherless non blake hand inseamed insoles have dimples!!!

 

[fabiovenhorst]

Zara boots

 

[fabiovenhorst]

Zara Wingtip brogues

 

[Isshinryu101]

I agree with everything you have said in those two posts, but l will not agree on the issue saying my Branchini is fake bentivegna. We will have to agree to disagree on that point. I also disagree on the below point and true my best to explain why.

You say = "Norv NEVER has a strip of leather outside the uppers".

I say = that is not always true either. Why? Because the norvegese out-turned upper can have a rand sitting on top with a stitch going through the rand and the upper and outsole and midsole. BUT please note: this is very different to bentivegna construction which has a proper functioning L welt (as opposed to bonwelt) along side the upper which is stitched to the upper and insole and also the upper to outsole to midsole. See...the norvegese doesn't have the same strip of leather to upper to insole stitch, nor the L strip of leather as you know.

Note: when l say norv has a strip of leather against the upper l am NOT talking about in Vass style or the usual ltalian bentivegna, l am talking about the outurned upper spread over the midsole covered by the rand. Like in the norv diagram but with a rand sitting along the bottom, other times no rand can be used. I recall Dopey from S.F being asked whether he wanted norvegese with or without a welt, but in this case the shoemaker used a lose term for welt to mean bonwelt.
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=norvegese+construction+pictures&client=opera&hs=f63&channel=suggest&tbm=isch&imgil=1S8E1Ru-pkttDM%3A%3BrYs4N-1ufy8G_M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.scarpedibianco.com%252Fart-of-the-shoe&source=iu&pf=m&fir=1S8E1Ru-pkttDM%3A%2CrYs4N-1ufy8G_M%2C_&usg=__V1j4FP-C_qn4A1UOvDm59cRgACQ=&biw=1680&bih=925&ved=0ahUKEwiQrIGO9ebLAhWBrhQKHWFdDSsQyjcIMw&ei=tP36VpCCMoHdUuG6tdgC#imgrc=UOF1bSsVaZhmAM:

Note that that particular diagram does have some issues. It is definitely not 100% accurate. I've had that same diagram for many years, and it is simply an opinion by the person who made it as to the definitions.

As for norvegese, I am going 100% based on the definition used by all the top Italian makers who are known for them.

From Santoni to Sutor to Lidfort to stefanobi/ berluti, Lattanzi and the rest. They NEVER use a strip of leather outside the uppers and call it Norvegese. They always just sew that upper straight into the topsole. I get what you are seeing on those diagrams, but they do not conform to the makers abd what they consider norvegese.

As for bentivegna/ goyser... if you deconstruct your Santoni's (I hope you do not, lol), you will see that they are made using a method identical to the one Vass outlines in their book. Again, I am just going by what the MAKERS are calling bentivegna (the ones that specialize in this construction). All the shoes sold as bentivegna by those makers is constructed the same.

You will not find one of the makers who specializes in norvegese calling a shoe with the leather strip outside the uppers (like your pair) norvegese. Again, one may well find DIAGRAMS that call it this or that, but I stick to the makers and their definitions.

 

[Isshinryu101]

Yes, Isshy and l love our welts and stitches.

What l would love to know is if there are any hand inseamed shoes with a hand carved feather that have dimples on the insoles. The J&M handmades, Cleverley bespokes, Vass, St Crispins etc have hand carved feathers but they do not have dimpled insoles, BUT the Santoni norvegese and bentivegna's have no feather and do have dimpled insoles. My Chinese made Marlboro handmade also has a dimpled insole and doesn't appear to have a feather either, and my local Pisa bespokes made by John also had a dimpled insole with NO feather. Could it be the only the featherless shoes have dimpled insoles when inseamed by hand? (Naturally a machine couldn't inseam by hand with no feather present).

A dimpled insole on my Santoni norvegese (haha, it is an old pic l made years ago)

The dimpled insole of my Chinesze made Marlboro handmades

The dimpled insole of my Pisa bespoke made without a feather.

Believe me, the dimples are much more prominent than the pictures show. I love nothing more than a good bunch of dimples on me insoles.

LOL, yes, dimples are fantastic! I wonder if the angle at which the stitches pull and/or the tension and how deep they are cut into the insole. I do notice that the norvegese shoes always seem to have pronounced dimples. An added bonus!

 

[Isshinryu101]

Isshy have you seen the Santoni norwegian constructed shoes without the dimples? They can look identicle to a simple inseamed norvegese except they have a feather. If you could tell me you saw a norvegese Santoni look-a-like without dimples then l may have the answer to my question about dimples and feathers. Some people have said the dimples are caused by the inseaming pulling on the feather, but l say NO WAY!

I do feel almost convinced that featherless non blake hand inseamed insoles have dimples!!!

I will have to check!

 

[LuvMyMan]

LOL, yes, dimples are fantastic! I wonder if the angle at which the stitches pull and/or the tension and how deep they are cut into the insole. I do notice that the norvegese shoes always seem to have pronounced dimples. An added bonus!

You both are putting us here through " Shoe college" on the norv issues.

The shoes you have pictured Enzo Bonafe norv, are the only pair of monk type strap shoes I have ever seen that are so darn lovely looking! Do you have any in an 10 1/2 or 11D???? If so, I'll take um for Daniel!

 

[LuvMyMan]

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Here are the Thom McAnns all polished and ready for wearing! They were easy as pie to condition and then polish. Inside as clean as out, and there is a padding that starts inside a bit forward of the waist area and runs all the way around on the sides of the shoe. Note the nice thick soles! These rascals have some heft to them.

 

[Isshinryu101]

You both are putting us here through " Shoe college" on the norv issues.

The shoes you have pictured Enzo Bonafe norv, are the only pair of monk type strap shoes I have ever seen that are so darn lovely looking! Do you have any in an 10 1/2 or 11D???? If so, I'll take um for Daniel!

Wish I had more! I actually picked them up from a friend (a shoeseller) in a trade maybe 5 years ago. Retail was around $8k. CRAZY, and certainly not your "everyday shoe". Glad you like 'em.

 

[Rudie]

I finally picked up some Caddy and I must say it is quite different from Lexol. I have two pairs of vintage shoes in rehab right now and they drink the stuff up. It goes right through the linen lining without leaving the insides greasy. I nearly spent half a bottle on this one pair of shoes and the linen is still dry as a bone although I am mainly applying it to the insides.

 

[LuvMyMan]

Wish I had more! I actually picked them up from a friend (a shoeseller) in a trade maybe 5 years ago. Retail was around $8k. CRAZY, and certainly not your "everyday shoe". Glad you like 'em.

Well I sort of knew they would be priced up there, yet as nice as those are, I'd be willing to set money aside for 2 months or so to buy them. Those are such fantastic looking shoes, regardless of whom made them and the price! They are true works of art! Do they fit you? Hahah!

 

[LuvMyMan]

I finally picked up some Caddy and I must say it is quite different from Lexol. I have two pairs of vintage shoes in rehab right now and they drink the stuff up. It goes right through the linen lining without leaving the insides greasy. I nearly spent half a bottle on this one pair of shoes and the linen is still dry as a bone although I am mainly applying it to the insides.

Wow Rudie, thast is great you finally have some Caddy! Now you can see for yourself how much different it is and how nice it is to work with. Yep shoes will drink that Caddy up, but that is exactly what you want for the leather. When you are all done please shoot us a picture of the shoes please! Thanks so much!

 

[DJH]

I know Allen Edmunds isn't considered the peak of shoemaking around here, but they are way better than what I used to wear.

I was looking for something casual I could wear with jeans or Dockers and these Strandmok in Navy will do nicely.

 

[LuvMyMan]

I know Allen Edmunds isn't considered the peak of shoemaking around here, but they are way better than what I used to wear.

I was looking for something casual I could wear with jeans or Dockers and these Strandmok in Navy will do nicely.

Yes those do look sharp in the contrast of the natural color and then the navy blue! Geez, what size do you wear?