San Francisco voters BAN HANDGUNS

[Baron Kurtz]

I am an avid gun collector and shooter and I believe that hunting is a cruel, useless, horrible activity that is diguised as "sport" so guns and hunting animals don't mix for me. I believe guns are for self defense and target shooting not to kill animals minding their own business. Legalize adulthood.

I am pro-guns (excluding handguns) and would hunt - to eat - if i had a rifle, and coming from Britain i find the laws there overly restrictive.

Back to the point. You said 'Guns are a tool that is easy to misuse'. What are handguns a tool for? If you're saying they are a tool for hunting you logiced yourself into quite a deep hole. But i'm really interested to find out what handguns are tools for. Tool (except for the obvious sexual connotation - which may or may not be relevant to a discussion of weapons ownership) would suggest something used every day for a tangible function (opening beer bottles a la Homer Simpson, for example) unrelated to something necessarily intangible like 'safety'. A hammer, for example, is a tool which could give a feeling of safety when hidden under the pillow. And the highly restricted situation with lions etc. doesn't count . I'm looking for a common occurence when handguns play a role, in a city, unrelated to 'safety'.

 

[photobyalan]

You said 'Guns are a tool that is easy to misuse'. What are handguns a tool for?

Im afraid he's got you there, Bebop. Handguns, to paraphrase Lynrd Skynrd, are made for killin'. If you shoot someone with it, that's not MISusing it.

Guns are tools as far as I'm concerned. A tool for killing, yes, but a tool nevertheless. A tool is something you have so you don't have to use your bare hands to do a job. Ergo, guns are tools.

Baron, what if we change "safety" to "self defense". That's a legitimate use for a gun in an urban environment. If you listen to the anti-gun lobby, urban areas are teeming with people carrying weapons. Therefore you'd be quite foolish to enter a city unarmed, lest you be at a serious disadvantage. While you could use a long rifle or a shotgun for self defense in an urban setting, and just the sight of one would probably serve as a pretty effective deterrent to passing ruffians, carrying such a large and visible weapon around in a city is usually frowned upon by the constabulary. The carrying of a small weapon such as a handgun affords one the ability to defend oneself without attracting undue attention or unnecessarily alarming old ladies, policemen and Democrats.

 

[photobyalan]

Actually I remember that All in the Family episode. I think you got the spelling of the last word wrong though. I think Archie pronouces "Winders."

Regards to all,

J

I stand corrected.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Baron, what if we change "safety" to "self defense".

My semantic thirst is thusly slaked.

I still think handguns should be banned but we can all, i'm sure, agree to disagree :cheers1:

 

[photobyalan]

... we can all, i'm sure, agree to disagree :cheers1:

Absolutely. If we can't keep finding things to disagree about, it's going to get mighty dull around here!
:beer:

 

[Biltmore Bob]

The reason I have guns and handguns specifically, is to make it easier to kill someone who is threatening my life, family or property.

What's the big deal? It should be easy and simple.

 

[Slate Shannon]

The reason I have guns and handguns specifically, is to make it easier to kill someone who is threatening my life, family or property.

What's the big deal? It should be easy and simple.

Absolutely. I reserve the right of self-defense as a free man, even if it means using deadly force.

But that's not the only reason I own guns. I also enjoy target shooting with a handgun. There is a certain pleasure and feeling of accomplishment in placing 6 rounds in a space that can be covered by 50-cent piece. I am no expert shot, I can only do it occasionally, but when I do, it feels good.

I also think that handguns, and indeed all firearms, have a certain aesthetic value. They are a precision and functional piece of machinery, not much different from, say, an Italian sports car. I appreciate their craftsmanship and mechanical beauty.

I think the real problem is a society that portrays an inanimate object as "evil" on one hand, and on the other, has a multi-billion industry of glorifying it's misuse in movies, TV, and video games as a means of solving your problems and elevating your sense of power. And when someone does just that, they're not held accountable as much as the gun is blamed.

 

[Biltmore Bob]

One of the biggest problems as I see it is that we have raised up a generation of people who have not been raised around firearms. When I was eight I was walking the woods of Northern Virginia not 30 miles from the nations capitol with a rifle. Yes folks there used to be woods in Northern Virginia.

We also have generation of people that have not been taught person accountability. Parents come to the rescue of their kids for any offense so they don't learn about consequences. Judges give out suspended sentences for first time offenses (a big mistake in my opinion). Polititicians that tell certain demographics that they can't be expected to better themselves. Lawyers that sue for everything from spilled coffee to suing firearms manufacturers for murders comitted by convicted felons that can't legaly posses a gun in the first place. Andykev was correct. it's all about personal responsibility.

Don't screw with my freedoms because you're an anti self defense fairy.

I want it to be easy to kill somebody. Why make it hard?

God bless Texas...

 

[Joseph Casazza]

Don't screw with my freedoms because you're an anti self defense fairy.

I want it to be easy to kill somebody. Why make it hard?

I'm not sure that characterization is entirely fair. What you are really saying, I presume, is you want to make it easy for the just to kill the unjust (I cannot imagine that you would like to make it easier for the criminal to kill), but I think all that we have accomplished so far is to make it easy for everyone to kill. You are far more likely, just on logical grounds (I make no claim to know statistics here) to be the easy target for the unjust than to succeed in defending yourself with a firearm, even with a permit to carry a concealed weapon. That is because the unjust have no scruples about how or when to attack, while you, as a just person, must always be fighting on the defensive. Shoot first, and you are far more likely to end up in jail as the criminal. And the truly serious criminal will always be able to muster more firepower than you are likely to have handy, be better defended, perhaps even with body armor, and is likely to be more skilled at using it. Don't get me wrong, self defense is a perfectly reasonable argument for having a weapon. Maybe it will even work. Maybe it even has worked for you. But I would not want to live in a place where I had to be armed to deal with everyone I have to deal with in everyday life, because they were all armed too. What a nightmare! It is hard enough for those who are permitted to be armed to refrain from using their weapons to settle the most trival arguments. We had a case here just recently where a US Marshal shot a sailor in the back as the sailor tried to leave an argument that had erupted over some minor traffic problem in a parking lot. The Marshal claimed self defense. Not many people, including the jury, could figure how you had to shoot an unarmed man who was driving away in the back to defend yourself. The Marshal had the gun, the desire for revenge is very strong, and he had the drop on his adversary - his back was turned. Temptation was too much. Now I know the darkness in the core of my being, and I know I should not go armed. I also know that I am no better and no worse than anyone else in that regard. Many of us, however, appear to be in denial.

 

[Joseph Casazza]

I think the real problem is a society that portrays an inanimate object as "evil" on one hand, and on the other, has a multi-billion industry of glorifying it's misuse in movies, TV, and video games as a means of solving your problems and elevating your sense of power. And when someone does just that, they're not held accountable as much as the gun is blamed.

Well, in my state we still hand down life terms in prison and the death penalty. In most other states, too, I believe. In fact, our prisons are full to bursting with quite a few people who have turned weapons against their fellow humans. It would be hard to muster convincing evidence that we are too lenient, and are just blaming guns for violence.

 

[Joseph Casazza]

Actually, cars kill far more people than guns in the United States each year. Yet just about anybody is allowed to drive, many even after they have proven that they are dangerous behind the wheel (by speeding, drunk driving, or other serious traffic offenses).

Not the best of counter arguments. After all, all states require licenses and insurance for cars. Many states also require frequent inspections of your car, and annual taxes to own one. Gun owners would go ballistic (forgive the pun) over any of those measures for guns. Even the minimal permitting required in certain places for guns is too much for some.

 

[Bebop]

I am pro-guns (excluding handguns) and would hunt - to eat - if i had a rifle, and coming from Britain i find the laws there overly restrictive.

Back to the point. You said 'Guns are a tool that is easy to misuse'. What are handguns a tool for? If you're saying they are a tool for hunting you logiced yourself into quite a deep hole. But i'm really interested to find out what handguns are tools for. Tool (except for the obvious sexual connotation - which may or may not be relevant to a discussion of weapons ownership) would suggest something used every day for a tangible function (opening beer bottles a la Homer Simpson, for example) unrelated to something necessarily intangible like 'safety'. A hammer, for example, is a tool which could give a feeling of safety when hidden under the pillow. And the highly restricted situation with lions etc. doesn't count . I'm looking for a common occurence when handguns play a role, in a city, unrelated to 'safety'.

Guns are a tool to use to stop anyone that is intent on harming you or your family. They are tools to facilitate stopping an aggressor. Man or animal. They can be misused by being put to use to commit crimes. That is the misuse of handguns. You don't have to use a tool everyday in order for it to be a tool. I don't quite get the "unrelated to safety" part of your question. Guns are not a tool for anything unrelated to safety. The word tool does not mean only something you would use everyday that is related to safety. I believe handguns are more useful for me than long guns. I don't hunt therefore I don't need long range capability. I need something that has the ability to be used in tight quarters and is not easily wrestled from my hands. What is the point of being pro-guns but not pro handguns? I don't get it.

 

[Biltmore Bob]

Joseph...

It ain't a perfect world. Stuff happens. We will never be able to take the guns from the criminal...ever. So why disarm the average Joe and make it harder for him to defend Hearth and Home if he wants. The Marshal acted criminally and he was permitted to carry a gun. He made a choice to shoot an unarmed person over a trivial matter. It's not the guns fault. It's the guys fault. It may have been easier for him to kill, but it was still his choice.

What's the alternative? There is none. Take away the good guys guns and their ability to defend themselves and it's open season for the predator.

When was the last time Maryland executed a prisoner? Texas executed someone the day before yesterday. But I really don't think the death penalty has much deterent effect, but it sure does remove someone from the gene pool.

In Texas as well as Fla. we do have the right to shoot first when threatened. Of course we will have to articulate the threat to the police and maybe a grand jury, but oh, well. You know the saying. The police have the right to shoot first. There is no law that I know of that says you have to be shot at before you can shoot back.

I've had to defend myself with a firearm and it wasn't pretty. Shots were fired and injuries ocurred but I did not kill anyone. At the time I was really glad I had a pistol and thirteen rounds in the magazine...and two reloads. And backup on the way...even though it took three very long minutes. You know what can happen in three minutes? Let's put it this way....lots. I was almost killed. Being armed was what saved me.

I hope you and any other member reading this never has to go through a violent criminal assault, if you do and live you will wish you had been armed.

 

[shamus]

Compairing cars to hand guns is silly.

Cars weren't made for one purpose. They were made to get you from point A to point B. And came in different versions to accomedate what you needed to bring you.

Hand guns are made for one purpose. Killing humans. Except for the Thompson line of hand guns and the like that are for hunting purposes.

Why not throw in some other big killers... like gravity or old age.

Unless you live in San Fran and own a handgun.. why are you so worried about anyway?

 

[Joseph Casazza]

One of the biggest problems as I see it is that we have raised up a generation of people who have not been raised around firearms. When I was eight I was walking the woods of Northern Virginia not 30 miles from the nations capitol with a rifle. Yes folks there used to be woods in Northern Virginia.

What generation would that be then? In my family, nobody has been raised around guns since the 1880's. Except for Uncle Peck, who did certain jobs for certain families in NY and NJ, and unfortunately ended up dead and stuffed in the trunk of his fancy car. I dare say my family's experience is not all that different from that of most city dwellers of the last 125 years, and most Americans have been city dwellers in that time span. So, are you blaming the baby boomers, the hippies, the uncounted Liberal masses who have spent the last 45 years trying to destroy America, or are you blaming my great-grandfathers, who fled Europe so they wouldn't have to tote guns for the Czar or the local crime boss in Genoa, and liked the fact that they could live in peace in the United States, unarmed and without looking over their shoulder?

 

[Bebop]

Im afraid he's got you there, Bebop. Handguns, to paraphrase Lynrd Skynrd, are made for killin'. If you shoot someone with it, that's not MISusing it.

Guns are tools as far as I'm concerned. A tool for killing, yes, but a tool nevertheless. A tool is something you have so you don't have to use your bare hands to do a job. Ergo, guns are tools.

Baron, what if we change "safety" to "self defense". That's a legitimate use for a gun in an urban environment. If you listen to the anti-gun lobby, urban areas are teeming with people carrying weapons. Therefore you'd be quite foolish to enter a city unarmed, lest you be at a serious disadvantage. While you could use a long rifle or a shotgun for self defense in an urban setting, and just the sight of one would probably serve as a pretty effective deterrent to passing ruffians, carrying such a large and visible weapon around in a city is usually frowned upon by the constabulary. The carrying of a small weapon such as a handgun affords one the ability to defend oneself without attracting undue attention or unnecessarily alarming old ladies, policemen and Democrats.

Guns are not meant to kill anyone you feel like killing. It depends why you shoot someone with it to either misuse it or use it for it's inteded purpose. Guns are not meant to be used to commit rape, murder or mayhem anymore than a hammer is meant to do that. The "guns are the only thing that used for their inteded purpose kill and maim" argument is a wash because guns are made for self defense and hunting and target shooting, not criminal activity. If criminals use them to commit crimes they are misusing them. Just as one could misuse rat poison.

 

[shamus]

I've had to defend myself with a firearm and it wasn't pretty.

Bob,

Was that when you were a cop or just a guy in his driveway?

 

[Biltmore Bob]

OK Joe, I see your point...

Maybe I didn't put it right. Maybe what I meant to say was 'raised without the knowledge of firearms' or something like that. You'll have to admit that America is and has always been a firearm frendly country, despite what the liberals are trying to do.

There was never a 'Mystery' to guns to me. They were always thought of as only a tool. My kids learned about guns from an early age and I never made a big deal out of it. All my kids shoot, sometimes better than I do. My youngest is seven and she can put ten in the X ring at 20 yards with a .22 rifle. My wife has a carry permit too.

 

[Biltmore Bob]

Bob,

Was that when you were a cop or just a guy in his driveway?

Cop.........

 

[Baron Kurtz]

anti self defense fairies ... UNITE!!! against the pro self defense ... ummmm ... someone help me out here

bk :cool2: