REPRO flight jackets a little too good?

[Atticus Finch]

You know, I had never really thought about it from the perspective of folks like Ken Calder and John Chapman. It must be frustrating to be marketing "exact" reproduction flight jackets...knowing that original flight jackets were nothing near perfect in terms of quality or consistency...and also knowing that your customers expect (and pay big bucks for) perfection in terms of quality and consistency...in their "exact" reproduction flight jackets.

Did I say that right?

By the way...I am not as anti-repro as my posts may indicate. I actually own a Goodwear A-1.

AF

 

[CBI]

Atticus - correct and I must say that having these custom made for each person creates all sort of added customer "issues" that are quite taxing for makers.

 

[kampkatz]

When I was teaching in the early 70's our principal would tell us stories of his life as a quartermaster sergeant at an AAF base. After VJ day and notice that they would be going home, his CO ordered him to collect ALL unissued flight gear, pile it up and burn it, which he did(after sending a few choice items home). I still cringe when I picture him recounting that story.

 

[Atticus Finch]

When I was teaching in the early 70's our principal would tell us stories of his life as a quartermaster sergeant at an AAF base. After VJ day and notice that they would be going home, his CO ordered him to collect ALL unissued flight gear, pile it up and burn it, which he did(after sending a few choice items home). I still cringe when I picture him recounting that story.

I have never been in this situation...but it is easy for me to imagine being sick enough of war and destruction and killing that I would be happy to burn all that reminded me of those things.

AF

 

[jon z]

Thrift Store

Is there any chance you could do me a copy of Ken's Thrift Shop...

I recently bought a pair of Lee's from Aero & they came in a Thrift Store carrier bag. I was puzzled until I Googled the name & made the link.

 

[Fiver64]

"todays puzzler is......."

Great posts and enjoyable reading! OK....... It's safe to say that 90% of us are anal about our repro jackets, to varying degrees. For big bucks we expect near-perfection.

Now, If you had $1000 to spend and your choice was a really high-end, minty new repro, OR.......... an average condition original, (and both cost the same $1000) which would you select, and why?

For me......... I just know that while I think the original is majorly cool and loaded with history, that I'd feel guilty as hell if I possible damaged it.

 

[442RCT]

Great posts and enjoyable reading! OK....... It's safe to say that 90% of us are anal about our repro jackets, to varying degrees. For big bucks we expect near-perfection.

Now, If you had $1000 to spend and your choice was a really high-end, minty new repro, OR.......... an average condition original, (and both cost the same $1000) which would you select, and why?

For me......... I just know that while I think the original is majorly cool and loaded with history, that I'd feel guilty as hell if I possible damaged it.

I'm definitely in the 10%...lol When friends ask why I don't go ahead and buy an original vintage A-2, I tell'em that I think they belong in museums, not in my closet. With that being said, I freely admit to being an accumulator of what has been described as 'orphan' A-2s. These are A-2s which many collectors started with and since moved on to upgrade their collections. I still pick up mall Avirexs with screen printed noseart on the back, recently I acquired a ProTech, a Willis & Geiger, an Aviation leathercraft and last week a horsehide Avirex. I have a house ELC, a painted Aero 1938, a painted RMJ, and my new treasure, a Sefton. If I were given a $ 1000 to spend on jackets, I'd definitely be on the lookout (well the truth be told, I am anyway) for a couple of Seftons in sz 40, which has become my favorite A-2. [huh]

 

[CBI]

I own three original A-2's. I purchased two of them as wearers as they are in great shape for that purpsoe - I am still careful though.

 

[Atticus Finch]

The only reason I own the two repros that I have is that I can't own originals of those jackets. They're just not available in my size...at any price. Sorry, but reproduction flight jackets don't give me the buzz (pardon the pun) that originals do. I understand the many reasons other folks buy them...but repros just aren't my cup of tea.

And...

I would much rather wear an original jacket with visible "honest wear" than a NOS or mint original jacket. I like scuffs and cracks and stains. It is the many stories the jacket could tell that attracts me so...

AF

 

[Grinder]

Now, If you had $1000 to spend and your choice was a really high-end, minty new repro, OR.......... an average condition original, (and both cost the same $1000) which would you select, and why?

Interesting question Fiver.

If I was a military nut or collector I'd go for the original. Wouldn't even blink.

But I'm not - however I'd still have trouble making my mind up. An original will have the cachet, the history and probably some faded decals and badges, as well as a lived in look. Might even have seen combat. Only thing is I would be depriving a genuine collector of the item and it's value is no longer based on materials and workmanship.

Repro works for me - they're easily replaced and if it gets damaged it's not a piece of history that's lost.

As I'm not a military collector - I just like the A-2 style and appreciate good workmanship and production values - so I used this exercise:

What if Zippo decided the shut down forever and another company bought the Zippo name and the right to brand its product Bradford PA.
Given the above scenario I'd buy the original Zippo.

Now, Zippo produce replicas of their 1942 lighters. There must be originals from the 40's on ebay but I'll buy the repro. It's still a Zippo but there is less pain if it gets damaged or lost.

As with some others my feeling is that originals should be preserved, ideally in museums.

 

[Fiver64]

All good points...

I guess, at the end of the day, there is only a finite number of originals. Repros can always be made. BUT............ who among us wouldn't jump at the chance to wear/own an actual jacket worn by aviation greats like Douglas Bader, Adolph Galland or Pappy Boyington! If only historical coolness and panache could be transferred through osmosis!

 

[bobbyball]

As a collector, I would always want to have originals but they are not the sort of thing you casually wear down to the pub.

For me, the history of these artifacts is important and so a repro will always be just a repro – the originals are unique survivors of the past.

The other issue is sometimes with sizes – not many originals survive in larger sizes and so a repro can be ordered to accomodate the pot belly that sometimes develops.

Interestingly, I would not order a repro that was badged or covered in unit insignia and rank. Some of the Japanese repros are covered in badges and rank and they look quite garish.

Originals are altogether different – a named and ranked A2 for me is much more desirable as there is the chance to research it and the associated history of the pilot.

 

[Papa M]

Interestingly, I would not order a repro that was badged or covered in unit insignia and rank.

Me neither. However I got the chance of a great price on an Aero Burma Bridge Busters repro with CBI patch and full Blood Chits etc. I couldn't resist it - especially as my late Dad had fought in the Burma campaign.

I've still not actually worn this jacket yet. It kinda sits there looking nice - which is enough for me right now. I'll maybe wear it one day when I want to turn a few heads.

 

[Stan]

Hi,

Well, I wear a Cooper A2 these days. I figure it's Close Enough for me.

I used to wear a Schott 4-in-1 that was a sort-of amalgamation of an A2 and a G1 and probably sixteen other styles. I wore that one for 20 years as a motorcycle jacket until I switched to ballistic nylon that works better when one rides down the road sans the bike!

I never thought of any of this until recently, when there was a Poughkeepsie Leather Coat Company A2 on eBay. That perked up my interest as I am originally from Poughkeepsie, as is all my family.

I have an original Poughkeepsie A2 in the closet. It was my dad's. Well, really his brother's to begin with. Uncle Lorin was in the 8th and flew B-17's. he was shot down in August '43 and liberated in April '45 by my dad's battalion of all things.

Anyway, he had a couple A2's after the war and gave one to dad. Dad used it when he raced midgets from 1948 to sometime in the mid 1950's. Now, what I'm going to say next will make y'all cry:

Dad dyed it black with shoe polish. He like his race cars and whatnot to be black, as it made him hard to spot since they mostly raced at night under the lights. He could pass someone before they knew he was there, you see.

It originally sported the nose art of uncle Lorin's B-17, which was some sort of odd looking leprechaun drinking beer out of a mug whilst leaning on the keg. You can still sort-of make it out under the blacking.

So much for thinking that they all sported pin-up nose art! lol

Anyway, the thing is all but falling apart. I used to wear it, but I outgrew it by the time I was 14. I always liked the style, so I still stick with it. I used to wear the A2 with an old dark brown fedora, and got asked if I thought I was Col. Hogan. Nowadays, it's Indy, but as already noted, times change the references. lol

I was interested in that Poughkeepsie mostly because I'm from there, and both my maternal grandmother and great grandmother worked at that factory, especially during the war when the A2's were being made. It's more of a family thing than anything else.

The real point of my post is that the original wearers of these wartime garments didn't think twice about what they were wearing. It served a function and nothing more. I know my cousin still has her dad's bomber jacket that he was shot down in and wore while a POW. As soon as he got out of all that, the jacket was hung up and something newer and in better shape was used instead. I'm quite sure that the A2 he gave dad was because his brother needed something protective while he raced that little car and he could easily supply something suitable.

Now, I suppose I'd be happy as a pig in s....a pig pen if I could afford to get one of these reproduction Poughkeepsies. For me, it'd be just like that Schott and the Cooper: something to wear that served a purpose and yet still had a little family tie. Of course, an original would be better, but I'd just wear it to it's probable destruction given what happens to thread over time.

What I don't know is if I'd get the back painted with that nose art from uncle Lorin's B-17 or not. Heck, I *would* if his crew had a pin-up, but no, they didn't! lol

My $0.03 worth - accounting for current inflation.

later!

Stan

 

[havocpaul]

I'd wear a plain original but anything with tangible history in the form of patches, name etc I wouldn't. Back when I started collecting and bought regularly from the Thrift Shop I did wear many jackets with insignia, supplies were plentiful (the war was only 30 odd years back and many vets were of course still alive and fairly young). Dave Hill the Pretenders' and Johnny Thunders' manager was a good supply as he was on tour in the USA frequently and had access to the gun shows where the jackets were sold. Check out many Pretenders photos from the time to see various band members wearing A-2's and M-442/G-1's.

 

[surdanis]

Just wondering...

I couldn't find anyone talking about the B-3. I think this is a fantastic American counterpart to the RAF Irvin. I'm torn between the Irvin and B-3, and can't decide which to get. I definitely like the notched lapels of the Irvin over the B-3's. I also find the belt in front of the zipper to be quite fetching. And then the zippers on the sleeves are a good feature, too. As for the B-3, the two collar straps are extremely eye-catching, and the exterior pocket is a plus.

Any thoughts on who makes the best B-3? I'm looking at ELC right now... I understand they make the "best" Irvin around. What's their average delivery time?

 

[Fiver64]

B-3

Welcome to the FL. This is probably best for it's own thread. I'm no expert, nor do i own a B-3, but there are many good reporos out there, but mostly crap. If you want authentic, there should be no side pockets, just a map pocket. Also depends on wartime or pre-war. Aero, Lost Worlds and a few others make nice repros. Others can give you better advice, based on actual experience. Be prepared to spend at least $450 for a decent B-3!

 

[DutchIndo]

I think the owners of issued War time garments were more concerned about living. If I was a scared 19 year old the only garment I'd be concerned with would be my underwear. Everytime I've seen an original anything i'm kind of shocked. Shocked because it doesn't look real even though it's the real thing.
Case in point my boss years ago gave me 2 brand new sets of Viet-Nam era Tiger Stripes. I saw the stitching and the buttons and was suprised at the details. There was nothing wrong with the workmanship but they are different from the repros we buy. I've bought so many repro "Tigers" that the original seem out of the norm. Unfortunately the "Tigers" don't fit me (stamped "AM" Asian Male inside the collar) so they're sill unworn since 1967.

 

[Grinder]

Having just received a HH A-2 from Aero and re-reading this thread it might be worth noting the slight "imperfections" I found.

1. the hanger is slightly off centre. Given the back is one piece and reference points are minimal I guess this would also happen quite often with wartime production.

2. On the left collar the button is not set exactly so the "drap" of the collars don't match exactly in that one collar point sits closer when buttoned compared to the other.

Ok, I could go back to Aero and complain. If this was a " The Few" production costing currently three times the list for Aero I probably would.

But, this is a hand made garment and such slight imperfections are to be expected. Indeed the are a dead give-away that the item is handmade.

Or should I go back to Aero?

I can image what might happen if I went back to a Quartermaster with such complaints in 1943

 

[P5640blouson]

I would say slight imperfection is okay, measure

For a reproduction high quality garment. I would say slight aesthetic imperfection is okay, measured by millimeters. It is a hand made garment but any seam/panel off more than a couple of millimeters shows poor craftsmanship for a fine handmade garment. Military manufacture garments are measured in centimeters or quarters of an inch in accuracy when it comes to aesthetics, and anything outright disfunctional is rejected, like a pocket flap that misses the edge of the pocket opening. Check out a Lewis, a Langlitz, a McCoys, or the high end fashion makes and you'll get a good idea of what is possible with fine handmade craft and quality of make.