REPRO flight jackets a little too good?

[Fiver64]

Gents (and Ladies),

With all the text flying around on FL and other forums regarding the persistent disection of details on high-end A-2s and G-1s, etc (GOOD WEAR, EASTMAN, R-McCOYS, AERO, etc), I wondered if some of the details made new jackets almost "too perfect."

I read reviews about "this (repro) jacket had slight imperfections in the seamwork, or lining color was a tad-off, the epaulets are 1/2 too far forward." Folks wrote that they were "very disappointed" when getting their new (maker name here) jacket, because the sewing was not perfect, or the pockets were 1/4" too wide, or the knits were off colored. Things like that. Owning none of the high-end A-2s myself (I love learning about the details), but having bought and sold militaria for about 15 years, I had to question the quaility of the actual wartime work and came to my own conclusions.

On strictly my own hyposthesis and some observation................ wartime production (in any country) is usually done by quickly-trained workers (not seasoned tailors) with order deadlines in sight. These garments are pumped out knowing that pilots will get shot down, or soldiers life-expectancies may be short. They are presumably made to fill an immediate need, not last a lifetime.

I've handled hundreds of original German, British, American, a few Japanese and even a few Italian WW2 uniforms, jackets and leatherwear. I'm just talking about ISSUE STUFF here, NOT OFFICER (private purchase) grade garments. IMHO, the Italian garments were the best tailored with the most consistent material. The German stuff was also well designed, but obviously the material (cellulose content, etc) slid as the war progressed. American uniforms seemed to vary the greatest in quality of construction and sizing consistency. Understandably, I take this to be caused by the fact that there were so many factories in opertaion. That is just my theory.

British uniforms (and accessories) were well made, but often curiously mis-matched! Specifically, I ran into a purchase of Un-issued leather flight gauntlets. I think a had a bundle of 10-12 still tied together. Anyway, no pair matched. I thought I had gotten screwed in the deal, until an English friend of mine expalined that Britain, in an effort reduce pilferage (theft), the powers-that-be farmed out much work to individual "cottage'industries." One factory made nothing but right-handed gloves and other made the left! It made perfect English sense, but if anyone can verify this for me I would certainly be interested!

That being the question......... do you guys (that have really done your homework) that have originals to test, find that most originals all have perfect seams, symetrical parts, and consistent overall workmanship in A-2s and G-1s, or do they vary widely? I truly have to doubt, that during wartime, there was much in the way of "factory seconds" when it came to garments.

Case in point.............. ASWATLAND (Andrew) graciously posted some great comparison photos of 2 original Doniger A-2s. Apart from the obvious style or collar variations, I noticed (unless it's just a camera-angle trick) that one of the pocket flaps was noticeably shorter than the other, on the same jacket.

Now, if that were the case with our new $1200 GOOD WEAR jacket with mis-matched pocket flaps, or "irregular" seamwork, wouldn't we feel outraged and question the quality and workmanship, and summarily crucify the brand on FL??

Instead, we pour over every minute detail...check every seam, match the lining color to those shown in references and gleefully gloat about our "perfect" acquisition. Why? So back to the original question...... are high end repros made too well? Is a "perfect jacket" truly authentic?

What sort of "inconsistencies" do originals tend to have? Can you actually take 2 A-2s, from the same contract, set them side-by-side and not see obvious differences? Isn't it nearly impossible to get the EXACT same color shadings from different dye lots? Did original makers really care about absolute consistency? In reality, was there (apart from general atyle or trademark design) an actual ROCK SOLID quality control in WW2 leather jackets? How do original demensions and features stack-up against each other maker? Is everything always consistent???

Maybe such knowledge would help some of us feel more satisfied with an "imperfect" (but material-correct) jacket. After all, once the A-2 bug bites, it becomes an obsessive disorder in it's own right!

THE FINE PRINT DISCLAIMER........Now, before someone jumps in starts blasting this brand or that (not the intent of this thread), or justifying why their new $65 pleather A2 with side pockets and polyester knits is just as authentic as an original, let's just stick to the commonly accepted high-end makers, that profess to be completely authentic! Can any one company really claim that their jacket is THE MOST AUTHENTIC, when measured not only against each other, but against historical reality?

 

[Papa M]

These garments are pumped out knowing that pilots will get shot down, or soldiers life-expectancies may be short. They are presumably made to fill an immediate need, not last a lifetime.

A profound and humbling point which makes my own indulgent interest in forces jackets seem incredibly superficial. I had the same shameful feeling a few days back whilst watching a harrowing documentary on US WW2 pilots.

 

[captaincaveman1]

A profound and humbling point which makes my own indulgent interest in forces jackets seem incredibly superficial. I had the same shameful feeling a few days back whilst watching a harrowing documentary on US WW2 pilots.

"A fanatic is one who redoubles his effort when he has forgotten his aim."

This quote comes to mind.

 

[RLM]

Very true Fiver. All good points. 2 jackets made back to back by the same maker for the same contract are likely to have slight differences and imperfections. Its just the nature of mass production. The best we can hope for with reproductions is that either they are based on one particular jacket the new jacket maker has to go by, or that the specs being used for the repro are an "average" of several different jackets that the maker has inspected. Either way, they'll not be exact in every detail across the board. How can you copy something perfectly when even the originals had differences from jacket to jacket?

 

[Fiver64]

Interesting

Thanks for the comment. I have felt that way myself on may occasions while handling militaria. I was essentially making money off of war, capture and hardship. But I also realize that we all indulge our interests in various ways and most benign in nature.

I think the degree of analyzation shown by fellow enthusiasts is usually regarded as a tribute....a way of keeping alive the past. I enjoy all the history and minutia, especially when someone pictures a named jacket or knows the history behind it. Our living connection with WW2 is fading far too quickly. Revisionist history isn't helping either, but that's a topic best left for another forum!

A profound and humbling point which makes my own indulgent interest in forces jackets seem incredibly superficial. I had the same shameful feeling a few days back whilst watching a harrowing documentary on US WW2 pilots.

 

[Phantomfixer]

Fiver,

I heard about the left and right glove factory before. Urban legend? Dunno but makes sense. I had a Bronco A-2 with the tag sz 36. The Bronco pocket design has the bottom corners cut at 45 degree angles. This jacket had one pocket correct with the 45 degree cuts at the bottom corner. The other pocket had rounded corners. Same jacket different pocket shapes. No stitch holes showing replacement. Go figure.

 

[aswatland]

The quality of WW2 A2s as with all wartime produced jackets, varied within contracts and between contracts. The experience and expertise of the seamstress was crucial here and many were newly recruited to work in wartime factories. There was also a sense of urgency to get the jackets made, so mistakes were common. So of course there were many originals which would not pass modern quality control.

The quality control of some contractors was better than others. Aero appears to have been less exacting than many makers judging by the quality of many of their surviving A2s, whilst Doniger, Dubow and Star A2s for example are generally better quality.

Few of my original A2s are as perfect in terms of construction as an ELC A2 for example. The seams are usually not as straight, the collar might be a little mis-matched and the same thing goes for the pockets. John Chapman's A2s show many of these imperfect features and this adds to their appeal IMO.

 

[ron521]

WHAT? You mean that A2's and G1's were not made by ONE company to ONE pattern?

I've heard people who obsess over tiny variances from some "ideal" jacket referred to as "stitch nazis".

It's both amusing AND informative to read posts about, for example, Indiana Jones-type jackets, and the search for the "definitive" Indy look.

It doesn't help that the jackets used in each of the four movies were made by different companies, and cut to different patterns.

So, if one wants an "authentic" Indy jacket, there are several ways to go, depending on which movie is preferred by the customer, and how one wants the jacket to fit.

I'm sure that the situation is much the same with reproductions of WWII or current military issue.

I asked a LOT of questions on Club Obi-Wan before deciding which Indy-style jacket to purchase.

 

[Fiver64]

lol........that's a bit extreme!

Great story, thanks! How did that slip past the inspectors? But, in any case, that's the point I was trying to make. When I catch myself looking at basically same material jacket, but the sewing wanders a bit, I first tend to think, "What shoddy craftsmanship!" But then again, is it any more-or-less "shoddy" than an original of which many of us would rave about, and gladly sell a kidney to acquire? [huh]

 

[Fiver64]

I have to ask........

Thanks for reply, Ron..........BTW< what jacket are wearing in your avatar?? I love the length!

 

[Fiver64]

Few of my original A2s are as perfect in terms of construction as an ELC A2 for example. The seams are usually not as straight, the collar might be a little mis-matched and the same thing goes for the pockets. John Chapman's A2s show many of these imperfect features and this adds to their appeal IMO.

Thanks for weighing in here, Andrew! I have always been amazed at your knowledge and collection, and your willingness to share benefits us all!

I guess going on the commonality of original imperfections, it just seems rather anal that we hold one company above another when discussing workmanship and being "most original."

BTW, is the pocket flap on the Doniger A-2 shorter as it appears, or is it "special effects?"

 

[aswatland]

BTW, is the pocket flap on the Doniger A-2 shorter as it appears, or is it "special effects?"

No special effects. Yes the left pocket flap is a little narrower than the right. It was quite hard to get them perfectly matched, and collars were even more difficult to match and get truly symmetrical.

 

[442RCT]

It's both amusing AND informative to read posts about, for example, Indiana Jones-type jackets, and the search for the "definitive" Indy look.

I asked a LOT of questions on Club Obi-Wan before deciding which Indy-style jacket to purchase.

[huh] When I wear an unpatched military G-1 or unpainted A-2, the most common comment I hear is, "Nice Indiana Jones jacket." or something to the effect of, " Why are you dressing like Indiana Jones ?" , I guess if this was the 80s, people would be asking if I was wearing a Fonzie jacket...:eusa_doh:

The leather jacket becomes iconic with whatever actor is wearing one in a movie at the time. Some actors, ie Steve McQueen, has become the Japanese poster boy for A-2s. lol

 

[CBI]

fiver - which repro A-2's do you own?

 

[Stearmen]

Perry Sportswear

This is a funny thread! If any one received an exact copy of my Perry Sportswear A2 from one of the high end makers, well, they would immediatly send it back, then call them and email them, and question their parentage and other birth rights! My A2 is very thin, crooked seems, miss matched pockets and so on. Defiantly not a $1000 jacket, of course it is worth more, LOL!

 

[havocpaul]

A good discussion point and one I agree with. I think the problem is that obviously a soldier/sailor/airman would have no time or interest in how his jacket was constructed so long as it did the job intended, jackets were mass-produced with little time for careful quality control, I would guess they'd check the main design and that the zipper worked and then off it went. After that many had several owners, had field repairs and modifications, resprays etc. Also the serviceman wasn't paying for the jacket (unless as stated, it was an officer's private-purchase item), in the case of an A-2 it was 'Property of US Army' anyhow. With the high-end repros goes high-end prices and our mind-set is if paying alot of money we demand 'perfection'. The repros on the whole are purchased not for a function other than as a 'posing, fashion item' (if we're honest, how many of us take to the skies!?). I do have a quiet chuckle when I see perfect reproduction uniforms being worn by guys that would only just have made the Home Guard, I recently did a series of cartoons seen on the VLJ forum that had a friendly dig at how we hope the wearing of a jacket would transform the way we look (before you jump down my neck, I am guilty of it too!), there has recently been a shift in how the repro makers have been promoting their wares, it is now 'fashionable' to want an instantly aged vintage looking jacket (GW's, ELC '50.cal..), I welcome the fact they are sourcing hides that have more character and grain with associated imperfections, some of the earlier repros made from 'perfect' smooth leathers would never really show any wear no matter how many years of use. I personally have collected originals since the 1970's and repros since they started to become 'good' in the following decade and owned most contracts and repro-makers' jackets. I have never really bothered what contract I had bought in the case of originals, it was the jacket's history that I was/am interested in, Id rather have an original that saw action and therefore had 'faults' than a factory-fresh one that had been stored unused since the war. With repros I don't count the stitches or measure pockets or epaulettes, if it looks right then it usually feels right to wear. All repro makers have their good and bad points, none are perfect (despite what some hype might be telling you at a given time), I also see many appear frequently on eBay or through forums, second-hand, often hardly worn, so it is an option to buy these at cheaper prices without long waits and with some feedback from the previous owners. I guess it like buying cars, do you buy new and accept it will be worth less immediately and may have teething problems if a new model, or buy second-hand. The choices have never been better and that when all is said and done a good thing.

 

[bobbyball]

There are other FL members who have many more jackets than I. However, I have, or have had, all of the repro high end jackets in my time and agree with the comments Andrew has made.

I currently have two original jackets and they are not stitch or seam PERFECT (whatever that means!).

The character we talk about in originals is often the 60 years of wear and the natural ageing process of leather that looks incredible. The makers who try to artificially recreate this have varying success and IMHO rarely get it right.

I am convinced that the majority of wartime jackets did use mis-matched hides – particularly for pockets and the leather under collars. I have seen many where the horsehide has deep scratches and grooves in the leather which were there before the tanning process. Wartime demands meant everything was used and in a large contract for jackets the fulfilling of the quantity meant that some of the jackets varied greatly.

Of all the jackets I have from repro makers, it is the Japanese who seem most obsessed with perfect stitching and they are almost too perfect and as a result do not display any character.

I have one of Goodwear’s new Japanese horsehide A2s and for me it is the best I have seen so far. It has that feeling of a wartime jacket.

Unfortunately none of us ever saw an original A2 on the day it was made. There are some rare examples of mint A2s around like Andrew’s.

The mint Roughwear I have shows variance in stitch count between the side seams and the shoulder seams. Some seams are tighter/higher stitch count than others – is it reasonable to assume they were all like this? I am not sure.

 

[Seb Lucas]

You're right, of course.

 

[Edward]

It's interesting to see the emergence of these somewhat broken-down as new finish jackets.... meeting a market demand, no doubt, given the number of people who are into 'water treatments' and all sorts to age their jackets. This idea of 'relicing' has been kicking around in electric guitar circles for the most of the last twenty years now, with many of the same debates and entrenched camps - "they look better broken down" vs "wear it in yourself like a real man, don't be a faker"... Really, all that should matter would be what an individual wants in their own jacket... but hey ho. The point re the difference in originals as worn back in the day and how they are now, with nearly seventy odd years of wear and tear is a pertinent one. Is the aim to create something that could pass for an original now, or which has a sense of the period and looks like an original would have done when worn in 1942? Definitely going to lead to a very different looking jacket, imo...

[huh] When I wear an unpatched military G-1 or unpainted A-2, the most common comment I hear is, "Nice Indiana Jones jacket." or something to the effect of, " Why are you dressing like Indiana Jones ?" , I guess if this was the 80s, people would be asking if I was wearing a Fonzie jacket...:eusa_doh:

The leather jacket becomes iconic with whatever actor is wearing one in a movie at the time. Some actors, ie Steve McQueen, has become the Japanese poster boy for A-2s. lol

Very true. I was actually discussing this yesterday evening with Rufus, and he put it very well, saying that what really put him off a patched up and decalled A2 was the number of folks who would just think Top Gun. Certainly puts me right off too!

 

[Grinder]

Some excellent points Fiver but not having been there on the production lines I have to rely on imagination and history.

Way back then we saw the birth or re-development of Quality Control, primarily in an effort to make sure as many bullets, bombs, weapons and other ordanance functioned as described and as few as possible found themselves in a jam due to bad manufacture. Those of us who work in real quality engineering today owe a lot to what was done then. No doubt this quality ethic pervaded other areas of manufacture at the time.

Given this is is not hard to imagine that the units produced when pitching for a contract were top shelf.
When it went to mass production given the ethic of the time I feel confident that while the same level of effort may not have been justifiable those that worked the lines did their best and produced a quality product and not something that would fall apart after a couple of missions. Bear in mind that initially they would have been working with expensive materials during a pre-war period as most of the designs are 1938-1942.
While I don't know this for certain I'm sure there were some Quartermasters who would have no problem returning batches that didn't meet some quality check on delivery.

My research also indicates that the original spec was for a silk lining and was later changed to cotton when silk became expensive and was required for parachute production. Aero Leather in Scotland at some stage in the past offered a silk lining but have since withdrawn this offer due to costs.
They also offer their "Real Deal" versions which still have the same construction costs but save by being less picky about matching the leathers.
Bird Colonel gets the matched smooth horse - pilot officer gets what he's given, jerky unmatched steer.

Outside of Real Deal offerings it seems what what is being offered at premium prices are exact replicas of what the D.O.D. would have received from the manufactures when pitching.

I guess that leaves an opportunity for someone to set up an operation producing "war quality" jackets at a reduced price.

For my money, and these things are not cheap, I want the best in terms of material and production values and am less concerned about the size of pockets, angles of collars or nature if the stitching.

If it looks the part, great.

If it will fool an afficionado, better. If I meet a veteran and his comment is "Nice repro" I'll be happy.

If, after 20 years of wear it is still going strong but beginning to look like it came through a war, we're suckin' diesel

Producing a high quality product honors not only those that wore them but those that made them too.