Regular CXL HH Vs CXL FQHH

[Harris HTM]

Look man, I am not trying to say LW is what or Aero is what not.

I know you don't. Up until now (see post of @Carlos840 above) I thought that Lost Worlds jackets were made of FQHH because this is what I had read on their website. I stand corrected, my apologies.

The average size for shell cordovan is about 2 square feet. Average horse fronts starts at 10 for single and up to 25 for double. The only parts I would have problem is in the sleeves, unless it gets cut up in two panels. Hence the East West designs.

It would be really interesting to see such a jacket. Though I'm afraid you'd have a lot of waste and the price would be sky-high.

 

[Canuck Panda]

Stuart told me their tanned hides are "sides" as pictured here:

If you ask for extra heavy they will use the butt for certain pieces like the back or the upper yoke.
Not every jacket gets butt, but not every jacket is 100% front quarter.

This is what I had suspected. And this sort of confirms it.
Horween cuts their horse hide in Fronts / Strip / Shells, hence Aero FQHH CXL.
But I suspect some of the other tanneries cuts them like cowhide, so sides, which includes fronts and strips. And the shells still get cut out because its the money maker. The jacket maker would in theory get a cleaner hide too because the mane mark is at the edge on side cuts, but right in the middle on front quarter cuts. And more interesting grain because of the strip parts.
I also suspect Aero buys some strips for their motorcycle jacket belts. Because some of my Aero bike jackets has thick belts. Strips in general were for that purpose.

I honestly the jacket makers leave these details out of their marketing materials to not confuse the potential buyer. We usually buy based on impulse. The more we know, the less we are likely to pull the trigger as consumers. Too much info to process.

And those shells look like balls.

 

[Canuck Panda]

I know you don't. Up until now (see post of @Carlos840 above) I thought that Lost Worlds jackets were made of FQHH because this is what I had read on their website. I stand corrected, my apologies.


It would be really interesting to see such a jacket. Though I'm afraid you'd have a lot of waste and the price would be sky-high.

No man, my bad. My senior dog shit itself this morning and I have not been calm since then. My bad.

 

[AeroFan_07]

A lot of good information on here. I learned a lot reading back overall this. It would take a while to process it all.

Thanks "Hide & Seek" for chiming in as well, it must have been some interesting conversations with Horween in the '80's, but golly has that ever helped out thier business.

Canuck Panda - I hope your pup is alright...I am a huge dog lover and value thier contributions in life greatly.

 

[Harris HTM]

No man, my bad. My senior dog shit itself this morning and I have not been calm since then. My bad.

No worries!

 

[red devil]

One of my crazy ideas was to make an entire jacket out of shell cordovan on my exit. Still to be explored. @red devil East West Electric Studio maybe?

Good question, I would need to ask him and see what he says. When I asked if it was possible to use badalassi hides for his 70s styles, he did say they were too stiff. The calfskin he uses has the best balance of firmness and drape for these.

But he did use the badalassi that was supplied by Mushmans to make the D pocket. He seems to be very open, but I haven't seen how open he is.... although I have mentioned to him some unique ideas, and he didn't seem too fazed and did answer that it would be best to go through all the details, what is feasible or not, at his workshop. So these ideas are wating for Japan to open up, there are a few wild ones

I thought about making a jacket out of only horsebutt, but then I found out that I already had some horse butt in some of my jackets. the LW ones. So I thought it does scratch that itch

I like the idea that LW uses the whole sides and just matches the panels optimally, it is nice to know that the most expensive parts, the butts, are not simply sold for shoes, but are used for the jacket

That being said, the tricky part, for a jacket made only of butts, is to have panels that are big enough for the jacket. You might need to use a jacket with many panels such as a trucker.

 

[Monitor]

Carol Christian Poell made a leather jacket and leather trousers out of unskived horsebutt. Unfortunately, it costs close to 5000 Euros.

 

[Carlos840]

Carol Christian Poell made a leather jacket and leather trousers out of unskived horsebutt. Unfortunately, it costs close to 5000 Euros.

If you ever found a pair of these in your size you would disappear like A1, i know it...
It's a shame no one told Poell his leather wasn't suitable for clothing.

 

[Monitor]

If you ever found a pair of these in your size you would disappear like A1, i know it...
It's a shame no one told Poell his leather wasn't suitable for clothing.

I found 'em. There's a pair in Greece and Germany. Size 48. But I cannot bring myself to pay as much. I could fix my apartment for that kinda money, instead of buy some stupid pants. But I'm doing neither. Maybe it'd be good if I disappeared of the forum, though. . .

 

[Hide'n'seek]

Stuart told me their tanned hides are "sides" as pictured here:

If you ask for extra heavy they will use the butt for certain pieces like the back or the upper yoke.
Not every jacket gets butt, but not every jacket is 100% front quarter.

The diagrams above show Bovine splits along the top row and horsehide splits along the bottom row. Tanneries can get far too much money for shells to include them in a full side cut. If they don't turn the shells into cordovan them selves they can sell the shells to a tannery that will.

@Canuck Panda trying to make a jacket out of Cordovan shells really wouldn't work. Not only would it be extremely costly due to the number of shells needed (on average say 30- 35ft for a jacket ) the size of the shells mean that the design would need to have multiple panels. The very dense fibre / structure of the shells also have no drape, and don't crease like fronts, they are stiff. It would be almost physically impossible to wear and move in, all the extra seams would also make the panels even stiffer.
You really do have a real desire for the heaviest jacket out there don't you. To succeed in getting a real heavy and wearable jacket you need to move away from horse and go for Steer or Bison.

 

[Will Zach]

To succeed in getting a real heavy and wearable jacket you need to move away from horse and go for Steer or Bison.

...or moose.

 

[marker2037]

A shell cordovan jacket would be impossible to move in. It doesn't crease, it just rolls and it certainly wouldn't drape. It would not result in a good look, even if you could find a jacket pattern with small enough panels.

 

[Aloysius]

A shell cordovan jacket would be impossible to move in. It doesn't crease, it just rolls and it certainly wouldn't drape. It would not result in a good look, even if you could find a jacket pattern with small enough panels.

It would look like a jacket comprised of boards of plastic, with perhaps a richer tone.

 

[TREEMAN]

I found 'em. There's a pair in Greece and Germany. Size 48. But I cannot bring myself to pay as much. I could fix my apartment for that kinda money, instead of buy some stupid pants. But I'm doing neither. Maybe it'd be good if I disappeared of the forum, though. . .

LOL !!!

 

[Guppy]

I have always wondered about what is the difference between regular CXL HH and Front Quarter CXL HH.

As per Aero, Chromexcel Heavy Front Quarter Horsehide is available exclusively from them and no other jacket manufacturer. I have seen other manufacturers (Simmons Bilt & Johnson Leather to name a couple) offer CXL jackets but none other than Aero offer CXL FQHH

The labels on Aero’s FQHH jackets even mention Front Quarter specifically whereas for other horsehides they use (like Jerky HH) the label simply mentions HH.

So what’s the difference between regular HH and FQHH and what makes FQHH so special?

I imagine there's potentially going to be a lot of misinformation posted with good intentions to this thread.

I'm certainly no expert on the matter, but the following is all true to the best of my knowledge:

- Chromexcel (abbreviated CXL) leather is a tannage. It is a trademarked name for a combination tanning process perfected by Horween, and the exact recipe is their trade secret. Only Horween can call a leather Chromexcel, and you can only get Chromexcel leather from Horween.
- Horween makes many other tannages of leather as well, so not all Horween leather is CXL. Horween is the company, CXL is one of their processes for tanning leather.
- Any kind of leather can be tanned as CXL, but as far as I am aware Horween only do cow (steerhide) and horse (horsehide).
- Front quarter horsehide is simply that: the front two quarters of a horse hide. The front quarters of a hide are generally regarded as having the highest quality. What I take this to mean is that they are the areas of the skin that have the "best" grain (meaning, tightest, finest grain, not necessarily the "grainiest" grain.) Also this part of the skin has the least stretch marks, and is the least likely to have blemishes, scars, etc. And may be the thickest part of the animal's dermis for all I know, as well.
- Certainly other parts of the hide have different qualities, which may make them more attractive or suitable for certain purposes than FQHH is, or, for applications where the qualities which push the price of FQHH higher than for the rest of the hide aren't important, then leather from the rear of the horse and the underbelly may well be just fine. They certainly don't go to waste.

Aero Leather Clothing Company produce jackets in a variety of leathers from a variety of tanneries, and is well known for using Horween CXL FQHH, but it is not the case that they are exclusive users of Horween CXL FQHH.

I'm fairly certain that you could order as much FQHH from Horween right now if you wanted to, or from a reseller that stocks it.

Many jacket makers have used Horween leather, and CXL, and I'm sure CXL FQHH. Some for special edition stuff (Schott NYC, for example, or the Vanson x Left Field Commando, which did a run in Horween CXL -- not sure if it was FQHH or not), and some will use it if you request it (Johnson Leathers of SF).

 

[MrProper]

A shell cordovan jacket would be impossible to move in. It doesn't crease, it just rolls and it certainly wouldn't drape. It would not result in a good look, even if you could find a jacket pattern with small enough panels.

 

[Guppy]

Our Cordovan Chromexcel colour is actually called Colour #8 by Horween , but used the term Cordovan instead and it stuck.

I'd been wondering for a long time if they were the same thing or not, and suspected they were. This is good information to finally know. Thank you.

 

[TooManyHatsOnlyOneHead]

good break down, Guppy. I'm not an expert, but I think everything you said is correct. Kind of like the champagne-sparkling wine thing. I'm sure each company will argue their variation of a chrome tanned CXL style is the best. Owning 3 or 4 Horween CXL jackets (3 aeros and the fabled leftfield/vanson you mentioned) I can tell you all 4 have different feels and looks. Granted they're also 4 different colors-blue, brown, black, and natural. So not sure how much that plays into to it, but they run the range from wet cardboard to actually pretty soft and pliable, grain vs little grain, major color evolvement with multiple shades vs. fairly standardized. Back to my champagne example, maybe it's like wine where the vintages do vary on a bunch of different factors.

Brown-- not very grainy other than tight lines on the creases, amazing color variation, somewhere in the middle of the softness scale, but not very pliable

Blue-- much more grainy, pretty standardized color through out, the softest and most pliable of all my CXL jackets

Natural-- mild grain, incredible color development (is now a deep caramel from the original sand color and retains a teacore lighter shade pull up effect), not soft unless heated to at least 120 F. and not pliable at all.

Black -- mild grain, incredible color evolvement as there is a thin top coat so a lot of brown is showing through and mixing with the black (not just high stress areas), fairly soft and pliable. This CXL feels slightly thinner than the others, while the others all feel about the same weight.

 

[photo2u]

I am glad some of you have taken the time to read and learn about leather. However, I think that working in tanneries would answer some very basic questions of how MARKETING plays a big role in determine how the hide would be process. I Personally, I never worked at any tannery and I do not consider my self very knowledgeable. In my experience being around friends who work in this industry in Veracruz and Guanajuato, I have witness for my self many times the tanning process and particular leathers some companies require in their orders.
I have seen so many trends in leather that is not even funny, however, good quality leather has not changed much. Horsehide is thick. Much of the volume is often taken to create a very uniform hide. In many ways, this is not the way I would like to see leather. But, I am not the one placing the order or paying for their time. Some very few companies who claim to control the tanning process are king in my view. They have the ability to create an unlike product for their company. As a whole, the majority of the industry does not work this way, Mexico, is a huge producer of leather. Sadly, their focus is to produce products that will accommodate many industries and their particular requirements. My friends who work in leather think I am crazy because I love leather with "character" They love leather that is near perfect. Go figure...

 

[AeroFan_07]

You all might find this detailed article helpful and insightful into Horween. I still have the "Gear Patrol" issue this came out in print. It is the only issue of Gear Patrol I have.

https://www.gearpatrol.com/style/a519794/inside-horween-leather-co-americas-legendary-tannery/

One very astutue comment in the article regards thier "Marketing Department": "Over the past decade, this space — where the 113-year-old company has been since its founder Isadore Horween relocated it there in 1920 — has seen what was once a mere supplier of materials turn into a globally recognized brand without allocating a dime to marketing. ..."