Recreation with a Weak Partner

[pdxvintagette]

Just to clarify, I didn't mean dance movies, I'm not a huge fan either. There are many vintage films - drama, comedy, noir, etc. in which there is a scene that takes place at a supper club or other venue where dancing is a component of the evening. Without fail, if a gentleman other than the one the lady arrives with asks for a dance, included in that conversation is something like "Mind if I steal her, Jack?" or "Would you be offended if I borrowed your charming companion for a dance?" etc. And it isn't just a minor breach of decorum to simply ignore the presence of another human being - it is plain rude.

As to your "serious venue" delineation, some of my favorite and most social places are the most "serious" venues that I go to - when in SF, I adore the Verdi Club on Tuesday nights, and that has been running for over ten years now. ALWAYS live music. A bar with a few tables. Tables and chairs ring the dance floor. A good number of people actually show up in vintage instead of the appalling dress code the lindy world has ascribed to in recent years. When it comes to where the focus is, that venue is just about perfectly balanced.

I don't watch dance movies--I just don't care for them. [huh] And I don't know if they reflect the standards of their day.

Now that I think about it, people on dates or engrossed in conversation tend to be left alone at dances where I go. I think this is a good practice in general.

 

[reetpleat]

This is as good a point as any to show up the difference between the old, mainstream, mostly-social dancing - where only an oaf or a groper would be shunned completely - and the current, niche-culture, more-for-itself dancing.

The old dance was a way of participating in a mass culture the aspired to a certain gentility. The new dance is a way of differentiating ourselves from a mass culture that has lost such aspirations. Inevitably, I think, it is going to be less inclusive than the old.

Agreed. Back in the day, there were the social ballroom dancers, who just liked to sway around to the music a bit. And almost everyone was reasonably competent at it. They typically grew up doing it, while a small group were simply "non dancers"

Of course, back then, a particularly good dancer would be more popular, as would a more handsome person or beautiful woman. Filled dance cards and all that.

And even the lindy hop and more difficult dances were commonly known, so that your average young person could do them passably well. and most partners did not have high expectations of them either.

However, therer was an elite level. I don't know about a dance hall in peoria, but in NY or LA or maybe Chicago, at certain dance halls, serious dancers did go to dance seriously. This is whre the performers, dance troups etc came from. At the Savoy Ballroom, the more famous of the dancehalls, there was the Cats Corner. You did not stray into it unless you wre a serious dancer. I don't know if you had to be invited, or could expect a rude welcome if you were not good. Nor do I know what kind of response a poor lead would get in asking for a dance. But it was from this environment, that Franky manning, Shorty George, Whitey's Lindy Hoppers, etc emerged.

But even at the Savoy, contrary to popular opinion, the majority was standing room only, take a woman in your arms, and sway around a little. Look at photos, and that is what you will see the most.

back then, dancing, for most was an excuse to touch and talk to a man or woman in a culture where it was not so acceptable otherwise. Most peole danced for that reason.

But there have always been serious dancers. These days though, that is the majority.

One thing that occurs to me, is while traditional ball room dances do depend on a certain level of skill, for me, the nature of the Lindy Hop is such that if I don't have a partner who knows how to give the proper resistance, push pull, if you will, and at the right time, then the dance becomes completely useless. the entire dance is based on both partners providing tension at a precise moment apart, and resistance at a precise moment when they come together. East Coast Swing somewhat the same. Without that feeling, the dance does not work, moves don't work, and I do not experience that special feeling that you only get when two partners are in complete sync. if I don't feel it, I simply put up with it until the dance is mercifully over. it isn't so much about how good or great they are. it is if they feel that basic, primal connection (and I don't mean the vague, musicality, connect with the music connect with your partner bla bla bla) I mean that precise split second where the follower goes out and you can feel them snap back in, and track right back into you because you won't be there by the time they get there. there is no feeling like a good solid swing out, done properly to feel in sync with a partner. And that is what I live for on the dance floor. She doesn't have to do fancy air steps, or intricate foot patterns. She just needs to feel my lead and give me a tight follow. if she can do that, she is a good dancer. If not, I will not ask her to dance again. But, I would never turn her down if she asked me. And I often wish a follower would ask me for advice. I could fix most followers (those lacking this skill, that is) in ten minutes, and show them what years of teaching apparently didn't. Beyond that, practice, dancing, is what separates the good from the great.

 

[reetpleat]

Just to clarify, I didn't mean dance movies, I'm not a huge fan either. There are many vintage films - drama, comedy, noir, etc. in which there is a scene that takes place at a supper club or other venue where dancing is a component of the evening. Without fail, if a gentleman other than the one the lady arrives with asks for a dance, included in that conversation is something like "Mind if I steal her, Jack?" or "Would you be offended if I borrowed your charming companion for a dance?" etc. And it isn't just a minor breach of decorum to simply ignore the presence of another human being - it is plain rude.

As to your "serious venue" delineation, some of my favorite and most social places are the most "serious" venues that I go to - when in SF, I adore the Verdi Club on Tuesday nights, and that has been running for over ten years now. ALWAYS live music. A bar with a few tables. Tables and chairs ring the dance floor. A good number of people actually show up in vintage instead of the appalling dress code the lindy world has ascribed to in recent years. When it comes to where the focus is, that venue is just about perfectly balanced.

It might be unrealistic to expect that convention to carry into modern times. In fact, many women would take offense at the idea that another man would have to ask another man if he may take possession of a woman for a brief time. And that is where the convention comes from. I suppose if everyone is playing dress up and playing old timey manners (and don't get me wrong, I have done it and love to) it might be done.

But I do agree that if two people are talking, anyone approaching them should acknowledge both of them, and should also acknowledge if they are interrupting but saying excuse me.

And I suppose, for lack of something better to say to the one not being asked to dance, "do you mind if I borrow your partner for a dance" would be a good way to go. In fact, that wouldn't even imply anything sexist. I would do the same if it were two girls.

 

[Fletch]

...therer was an elite level. I don't know about a dance hall in peoria, but in NY or LA or maybe Chicago, at certain dance halls, serious dancers did go to dance seriously. This is whre the performers, dance troups etc came from. At the Savoy Ballroom, the more famous of the dancehalls, there was the Cats Corner. You did not stray into it unless you wre a serious dancer. I don't know if you had to be invited, or could expect a rude welcome if you were not good. Nor do I know what kind of response a poor lead would get in asking for a dance. But it was from this environment, that Franky manning, Shorty George, Whitey's Lindy Hoppers, etc emerged.

And you know that in those days, they were only locally renowned, or famous in a certain world, whereas the orchestras they danced to were national, even international stars: Basie, Lunceford, Webb, Henderson...And that today things are almost reversed. The bands are appreciated mostly by a rather stale subclass of jazz historians, whereas the dancers are the idols of a living, thriving community that is still having (serious) fun.

But I don't think that has to do with the relative quality or integrity of either art form. It seems undeniable that both represented a peak of creativity and dynamic energy. It's just that one is easier, or more practical, or more attractive somehow, for people today to celebrate and keep thriving.

 

[Paisley]

Just to clarify, I didn't mean dance movies, I'm not a huge fan either. There are many vintage films - drama, comedy, noir, etc. in which there is a scene that takes place at a supper club or other venue where dancing is a component of the evening. Without fail, if a gentleman other than the one the lady arrives with asks for a dance, included in that conversation is something like "Mind if I steal her, Jack?" or "Would you be offended if I borrowed your charming companion for a dance?" etc. And it isn't just a minor breach of decorum to simply ignore the presence of another human being - it is plain rude.

As to your "serious venue" delineation, some of my favorite and most social places are the most "serious" venues that I go to - when in SF, I adore the Verdi Club on Tuesday nights, and that has been running for over ten years now. ALWAYS live music. A bar with a few tables. Tables and chairs ring the dance floor. A good number of people actually show up in vintage instead of the appalling dress code the lindy world has ascribed to in recent years. When it comes to where the focus is, that venue is just about perfectly balanced.

Again, I don't know if those movies reflect the customs of their day. Even if they did, there are many conventions of the dance world from 1940 that are no longer practiced. Personally, I wouldn't care for it if someone asked another person's blessing to "borrow" me, but I wouldn't take offense. This is what I was referring to: ask one person to dance in the 1940 way and and they may get offended; ask another in the 21st century way and they may get offended as well. I'd rather assume that the person probably didn't mean any offense to anyone.

I do agree with you about deliberately ignoring others, though; yes, it's rude and hurtful.

It sounds like your party place is to your liking. I've never figured out people who complain about a place but continue going there.

 

[reetpleat]

Again, I don't know if those movies reflect the customs of their day. Even if they did, there are many conventions of the dance world from 1940 that are no longer practiced. Personally, I wouldn't care for it if someone asked another person's blessing to "borrow" me, but I wouldn't take offense. I do agree with you about deliberately ignoring others, though; yes, it's rude. If I thought someone were being rude to me or my companion, I'd say no thanks to a dance.

It sounds like your party place is to your liking. I've never figure out people who complain about a place but continue going there.

I can understand the whole sexist connotation, but upon consideration, I don't think it would be offensive if two women or two people, or a group were talking, and someone asked if they could borrow them. It would be more of a courtesy, not implying ownership or possession, but simply acknowledging that they had their attention first.

Although, it would be polite to also ask the person invited to dance, which begs the question, which one first?

 

[Paisley]

This is all very interesting, but we've gotten far off track. Let's return to the weak partner question.

For things that are a sport (or a game), would anyone have a objection to a club that emphasized skill? I used to take taekwondo, and it was all about the skill. Nevertheless, I never sensed any politics or snobbery at the do jong. Weaker members simply didn't advance, but were welcome to stay.

 

[KittyT]

It sounds like your party place is to your liking. I've never figured out people who complain about a place but continue going there.

Unfortunately, sometimes there is just no other option.

 

[reetpleat]

Well, back to your question. I think you will have to be polite and honest, and be thought a little rude or snobbish, suffer through the occasional dance and try to enjoy it as best you can, or just say no thank you when asked, and risk being thought rude, but probably not as much as if you were honest.

When I say rude, i mean by the dancer. Everyone else will probably understand, as long as you are as nice as possible in whatever you do.

It is kind of like breaking up with someone. there is no way to do it without hurting them. But you are doing them no favors by staying in a relationship you don't want to be in. And all the excuses will not make them feel any better. But, years from now, if you did it with compassion and kindness, they will appreciate you for it.

 

[Paisley]

Reetpleet, I'm sure you're right. You can't please everybody.