Recreation with a Weak Partner

[Paisley]

Agreed.

This reminds me of something that happened to another dancer. He asked a girl if she'd like to balboa, and she said, "Yes, but not with you." The person she rudely turned down was Dan Newsome, a national lindy hop champion. I've never known Dan to be anything but gracious to people who asked him to dance.

 

[Chas]

There should be an hour per dance workshop weekend in every country devoted to dance etiquette. That would help.

 

[Paisley]

Etiquette should be part of the dance curriculum. Part of this particular problem is that people tend to think they're better than they really are. It's not necessarily their fault, their view is a product of the messages that the culture has been putting out there for the past few decades: You can do anything you set your mind to! If I can do it, so can you! If you can dream it, you can do it! Feel good about yourself!

But there's a difference between confidence and arrogance. The Dalai Lama says that if your attitude tends to have a negative effect, it's arrogance and you should consider the things you don't know to bring your attitude down to a moderate level. This is good advice, since beginning dancers tend to be unaware of what they don't know. It's not a bad idea to check yourself, either. If you're in a partner activity that doesn't keep score, ask your partner what thing you could do better. If your dance partner suggests stepping on the beat or developing frame, keep in mind that these are problems that make it difficult for your partner to enjoy the dance. A considerate person will work on fixing these problems rather than, say, taking an aerials workshop or anything beyond beginner level classes.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

I took Ballet and Jazz Dance in college. Black leotard/unitard and all. It was a blast. Dance is a true celebration of the human body.

 

[Fletch]

[QUOTE="Skeet" McD]I have no experience with Swing Dancing, nor its scene...but, believe me: what you say about it could be said about ANY human activity. More's the pity. There is no escape...this is humanity, red in tooth and nail. The good ones will stick out...you'll find each other. The rest: well, you can't make them go away, so you might as well be pleasant, but basically ignore them. Or so I think.

I do have some experience with country/contra dancing as well as mid-19C ballroom dancing. I'll save you the typographical screaming: just imagine this in italics, all caps, and bold face: I could not agree with you more about folks who do something (like social dance)--whose whole point was social interaction--as a competition sport. The dance was there, for all practical purposes, only as a means to meet people in a safe, civil, manner. There were monomaniacs then, too, of course...but now the proportion of them has gone from 1% to....well, you fill in the blank.

But, it seems you've found the "right" answer to the whole question: civil behavior trumps selfinterest in social interaction...or was supposed to, back when we had rules of conduct. If you've ever seen the wonderful Golden Age film MEET ME IN ST. LOUIS, the ballroom scene towards the end of the film provides all the background to dance behavior one could want...[/QUOTE]Swing dance today has little or nothing to do with the fox trot era it came out of. It is a moment in the history of social dance that was taken out of context and re-contextualized, by veterans of the punk movement, to make it mean something in the post-punk world.

I think what they were after was a more civilized way to approach the high-energy, extroverted, peak experience that punk was for them. That meant the tame, safe, middleclass aspects had to go - no more sweet music, ballad-to-middle tempos, or plain close dancing. Those things don't mean what they used to, and wanting them back isn't going to make them mean it.

Most importantly, for people who had been thru punk, new rules of conduct that did not apply to anything greater than the scene. Don't step on people or hotdog or throw yourself around like you're in a moosh pit. But it's not about being inclusive any longer. It's about the moves, not the music, and it's no longer primarily a way to socialize.

The days of mammoth ballrooms filled with suits and dresses are gone, and they're not coming back. Yes, it's a shame, if you're a romantic, but then again a lot of things are. We take our romance in small private ways now, because that's all life allows.

 

[Shirin]

Just to clarify a little more.

I dance with many people, and I'm happy to dance with newbies. What has been on my mind are a few people who've been in the scene for some time, haven't acquired basic skills and, I believe, aren't likely to do so.

I agree that with good friends or significant others, it's different. The social aspect is emphasized.

I didn't read all the responses so excuse me if similar things have already been said.
I took middle eastern dance classes on and off for 12 years, and we had women who been taking lessons for 5 years (or more) straight who danced no better than an advanced beginner. People all dance for different reasons as you know and everyone learns at different paces. Perhaps those people who are not advancing further just do not comprehend the steps so therefore cannot execute them so they don't even try or Perhaps their learning pace is much slower than average. They might even be there just to get out of the house and have something to do in their spare time and have no intention of furthering themselves in their dancing. I wouldn't get too involved in it, its better to focus on how you can better your dancing, and let the other people catch up when they're ready-if they ever get that far.
I also have to agree with what you said about egos. Sometimes this gets the better of people which hinders their abilities to try new things and push themselves further because in their mind, they're about as good as it gets.

signing off....

 

[Viola]

How does a true beginner begin politely? I don't mean an advanced beginner or someone who's just not very broad in terms of moves known but a rank newbie who has never been to a swing dance function?

I don't want to be a jerk. I thought it was sort of the thing where if you came polite and not smelling weird (too much perfume is as bad as no deodorant, I figured) and not in a prom dress for no good reason, you could sort of watch and find other newbies and pick it up as you go? Or do I really owe it to not come until I already know how?

Maybe my honey and I will come together and not inflict our dancing on anyone else except as Helpless Bystanders, watching in horror! lol

No disrespect intended to any serious dancers with real concerns re: consideration. PMs welcomed. Even ones telling me to get lost.

 

[Chas]

I used to be a hard core lindy/balboa/shag/ecs dancer. This, IMO, is how it should work.

- Generally speaking, it is bad form to refuse a dance. There are times when it is appropriate: i.e. if the asker's hygiene is bad, or is dripping with sweat, or was rough with you the last time you danced with him/her. You might also be saving that favorite song for a friend who had to book to the restroom, and the new asker has headed him/her off. A refusal here is appropo, but it should be followed with "Oh, thanks so much, but I promised this dance to Jim/Jane. But we can dance another one later". Refuse dances often only if you want to establish a reputation for being a jerk or snob.

- More on snobbery: Don't be a Lindy Snob! That newbie that can only dance ECS with two left feet might someday blossom into a champion swing dancing phenom. If they do, they'll remember you as one of the cool people that were nice to them when they were clumsy newbies.

- If you collide with another couple, it's the lead's fault (99% of the time). He/She should apologize on the spot.

- Keep those elbows and heels IN. You are NOT Frankie Manning.

- No unsolicited dance lessons. It's the apex of rudeness to critique somebody else's technique in the middle of the song, and afterward. If he/she asks for feedback, then give it. Also- very important- no impromptu lessons on the floor! The floor is for the dancers.

- SMILE. Very important.

- Personal hygiene: VERY important. Brush your teeth, shower, and if you sweat profusely, bring a fresh shirt. A note to those dancers who insist on jeans and t-shirts to dance nights: apart from your appalling lack of imagination and style, you are a sweat machine. Jeans don't breathe, hoss. I used to 'give 'er' in a pair of vintage wool pants, with an undershirt, shirt and tie. Sometimes even a jacket. The secret is a t-shirt under the shirt. That way, the tee soaks up the sweat and you aren't sopping wet.

- Dance with the beginners! I said it twice for emphasis.

- No Aerials on the social dance floor. NEVER NEVER NEVER. I don't care if it's the end of the night, and there's nobody on the floor and you can shoot deer in the dancehall. If you do it, I will be in your face. Seriously. Nobody comes out to have a saddle shoe in the face.

- Lastly: Always say: "Thank you for the dance!"

Here's a killer tip to venue organizers: Post a big sign with dance etiquette outlined on it. Also - and nobody I have ever seen has done this- establish a "STAND LINE" around the perimiter of your dance floor, and make sure your patrons know it is there and what it is for. When the wallflowers want to be asked to dance, they stand at the stand line. That way, the cats and kittens who want to yack it up and sip their water can do so without the awkwardness of refusing a dance.

 

[Chas]

How does a true beginner begin politely? I don't mean an advanced beginner or someone who's just not very broad in terms of moves known but a rank newbie who has never been to a swing dance function?

I don't want to be a jerk. I thought it was sort of the thing where if you came polite and not smelling weird (too much perfume is as bad as no deodorant, I figured) and not in a prom dress for no good reason, you could sort of watch and find other newbies and pick it up as you go? Or do I really owe it to not come until I already know how?

Maybe my honey and I will come together and not inflict our dancing on anyone else except as Helpless Bystanders, watching in horror! lol

No disrespect intended to any serious dancers with real concerns re: consideration. PMs welcomed. Even ones telling me to get lost.

Short and best answer: get a couple of lessons under your belt first, for confidence. It will help your hapless honey as well, because many men are mortally afraid of looking goofy. You're probably going to look goofy for a while in any case, so you might as well have fun in the meantime. Don't balk at spending the $$ on a PROFESSIONAL dance teacher, either, even if they don't teach lindy per se. I say this because 99.999% of lindy "instructors" are just half-decent dancers who think they can teach. Many cannot. A pro can teach you important fundamentals that are common to all social dances. i.e. Frame, connection, musicality etc. It doesn't matter if you are dancing Lindy, ECS, Tango, or The Castle Walk. They all use the same core principles I mentioned above.

Also - don't just dance with your honey. Dance with other leads and expect your honey to do likewise (with follows, anyway). That way, you will be a better dancer, as you will have to adapt to other dancer's skill levels and personal styles. It will improve your dancing, and you will avoid developing bad habits as a couple. I know of one couple that only dance together, but when I dance with her, it's nearly hopeless. She looks fine with her husband, but as a follow, she's dismal. It's because she only learned to dance with him. Capiche?

By the by - you have as much right to be on the dance floor as Mr.& Miss/Mrs. Lindychamp. If they don't like your newbieness, tell them to go take a flying leap.

 

[KittyT]

I don't want to be a jerk. I thought it was sort of the thing where if you came polite and not smelling weird (too much perfume is as bad as no deodorant, I figured) and not in a prom dress for no good reason, you could sort of watch and find other newbies and pick it up as you go? Or do I really owe it to not come until I already know how?

As others said, it's a good idea to know some basics before you go. At the very least, if a beginner class is offered at the beginning of the night, be sure to show up! Know, however, that it's hard to just watch and pick it up as you go without knowing the basic fundamentals that would allow you to dance with any partner.

Etiquette should be part of the dance curriculum.

the dance class I took didn't cover etiquette per se, but the instructor did talk about how to politely turn people down, and he has an extensive page on etiquette on the dance school's website.

Also - don't just dance with your honey. Dance with other leads and expect your honey to do likewise (with follows, anyway).

I like to ECS and jive at rockabilly shows. Unfortunately, there are almost no guys in the scene here who know how to dance. There are many more girls! So that leaves me usually dancing with the same partner (who I have danced with now for years). I'll never shy away from a new partner and seem to do OK with anyone else, but I'd love to have some time in a scene where I got some real variety :-/

 

[Paisley]

Viola, I draw a distinction between those who are new and learning (newbies) and those who have been in the scene for months and haven't learned the basics (weak partners). I don't consider newbies inconsiderate just for being new.

I pretty much agree with what others have said here about being considerate. When I started, I took a few classes in East Coast before I stayed for a dance. I warned my partners that I'd only had a few classes so that they wouldn't try difficult moves.

As for when you and your honey will be ready to hit the floor, I think you'll know when you start to get it. What I consider "ready" is stepping on the beat and knowing the footwork for the basic step. You should soon advance to having the proper tension (or not being spaghetti arms) and knowing where to put your weight (e.g., swinging on the rock step in EC). Your teacher should explain these things. You don't have be perfect--your partners should be tolerant of mistakes. You'll have to find your own balance of effort and enjoyment.

 

[Paisley]

I- More on snobbery: Don't be a Lindy Snob! That newbie that can only dance ECS with two left feet might someday blossom into a champion swing dancing phenom. If they do, they'll remember you as one of the cool people that were nice to them when they were clumsy newbies.

It's been seven years and I still remember who was too cool to dance with me--or even look at me.

Oh, the excuses they made on chat boards for their snobbery: injuries, newbies yanking their arm off, the natural order of things (e.g., supermodels don't hang out with nerds--I'm not making this up), neophytes need to be friendlier towards them, etc. Maybe they are doing everyone else a service by keeping to themselves.

 

[Shirin]

Well said Chas!

 

[Chas]

I like to ECS and jive at rockabilly shows. Unfortunately, there are almost know guys in the scene here who know how to dance. There are many more girls! So that leaves me usually dancing with the same partner (who I have danced with now for years). I'll never shy away from a new partner and seem to do OK with anyone else, but I'd love to have some time in a scene where I got some real variety :-/

That's because the Rockabilly scene is populated with guys who appear "too cool" to dance, however it's more likely that they're even more mortally afraid than the average joe of looking goofy.

The 'billies take themselves way, way too seriously.

Oh, the excuses they made on chat boards for their snobbery: injuries, newbies yanking their arm off, the natural order of things (e.g., supermodels don't hang out with nerds--I'm not making this up), neophytes need to be friendlier towards them, etc. Maybe they are doing everyone else a service by keeping to themselves.

Well, the hard-core scene-sters in the swing dancing scene (and I have danced in more cities than most) are some of the most socially maladaptive people I've ever met. It's pretty much why I don't dance anymore.

 

[Paisley]

I took middle eastern dance classes on and off for 12 years, and we had women who been taking lessons for 5 years (or more) straight who danced no better than an advanced beginner. People all dance for different reasons as you know and everyone learns at different paces. Perhaps those people who are not advancing further just do not comprehend the steps so therefore cannot execute them so they don't even try or Perhaps their learning pace is much slower than average. They might even be there just to get out of the house and have something to do in their spare time and have no intention of furthering themselves in their dancing. I wouldn't get too involved in it, its better to focus on how you can better your dancing, and let the other people catch up when they're ready-if they ever get that far.

Different venues have different standards. At some places, people dance solo; at others, couples put their arms around each other and sway and call it good. As long as the patrons enjoy it, that's perfectly fine. Most of what's been said here applies more to venues that cater to serious dancers where people dance for its own sake. Even there, if someone is doing a bad solo Charleston, so what?

 

[pdxvintagette]

It seems to me that this is all swinging to the hot button topics in the world of lindy/swing dancing.

But while we're at it, I do have a couple thing to say by way of etiquette:

Generally speaking, one should be able to politely turn down any dance one doesn't wish to take without the label of a snob or giving offense. One simply doesn't have to dance with everyone nor dance every song, etc.

Because I do go for the social experience, I spend a lot of time sitting and visiting or listening to the music. My boyfriend, who dances only on rare occassions and primarily jive, comes out with me and we enjoy a cocktail and conversation throughout the evening. I can't tell you how many times men have interrupted us right in the middle of something to ask me to dance. And on top of THAT, the thing that really rubs him the wrong way is -- they NEVER ask him if they can steal me away. Actually, half the time they act as if they don't even notice him sitting there! The fact is, if a woman is sitting with a gentleman, it is polite and appropriate to ask him before asking the woman. Okay, it is a formality - but it would be nice. Exceptions to this rule would be people who already know both of us and are friends/friendly acquaintences.

Okay, I realize that has nothing to do with this "weak partner" stuff. But since we were on the topic of etiquette.

Paisley, throughout this, it seems as though you'd already answered your own question. Curious why, then, you'd want to bring up such a hot-button topic?

 

[Paisley]

Pdx, I've given this subject a lot of thought over the past several days. In addition to this thread, I've asked dancers whose opinion I respect. Mostly, I wanted to check myself to make sure I had a reasonable attitude.

I agree with you about avoiding interrupting people in conversation, whatever the occasion. But I know of no rule requiring a husband's or date's blessing for a woman to have a dance.

 

[pdxvintagette]

But I know of no rule requiring a husband's or date's blessing for a woman to have a dance.

You're kidding, right? Have you EVER watched a film from the 1940's with dancing involved? I guess I shouldn't be amazed, because this lack of etiquette seems to be completely pervasive, but it seems sort of obvious when you think about it. Also, please realize that it IS a formality - it isn't that YOU need his blessing, it is that the other GENTLEMAN should be courteous of the fellow's existence.

Here's a quote from a Tango website that I think says it very well, and a link to that page as well.
12) ASK PERMISSION


Maybe some people will think this is very old-fashioned but I think it is nice: When you approach a couple who are dating or married and they are sitting together, it is nice to 'ask permission' of the other when you want to ask one of them to dance. Often it is the man asking the other man for 'permission' to dance with his lady. This is not because the man 'owns' the woman or because the woman needs her date's permission. It is simply showing the courtesy of acknowledging the other human at the table when you come to take their companion away. I think it is rude to come up to a couple and ask one person without even saying 'hello' or 'excuse me' or 'may I?' to the other. This rule of course only applies if the couple is actually seated together. And this rule also applies to women asking permission of another woman to dance with her man. Ladies, if a gentleman is standing with his arm around his significant other and you come up and ask him, make sure to greet both people, don't just grab him and drag him away. Yes, this happens, and yes it is rude.
Dance Etiquette

 

[Chas]

12) ASK PERMISSION

Dance Etiquette

I always do, when it's obvious that the couple are together.

As to refusing dances, refuse any and all you like. Just don't complain if you are branded a snob. Some people don't mind being referred to as snobs. If the shoe fits....

We are talking about social dancing, here. Not anti-social dancing.

You're kidding, right? Have you EVER watched a film from the 1940's with dancing involved? I guess I shouldn't be amazed, because this lack of etiquette seems to be completely pervasive, but it seems sort of obvious when you think about it.

It is obvious. We live in a time where rudeness is the norm, not the exception. Whether you're talking about road rage or cel phones in restaurants and theatres you will have a hard time arguing that we live in an era of politeness.

 

[Diamondback]

Doesn't work with dance, but there is one advantage to having such a person around in some other hobbies...

Means someone else (read, Putz) is gonna be the one buying the drinks and chow if it's a "Worst Score Buys" situation. lol

----------------
Now playing: Jerry Goldsmith - The Hotel
via FoxyTunes