Quality vs Price...is there a compromise?

[ButteMT61]

Yep..and there's one just like him on the VLJ. For a while I even thought it was the same person. Still not sure that it isn't. Too bad. Must run in the family.. [huh]
HD

Now you done and did it. Persimmon and Dr H will be in here with a long rope! lol

 

[Jeff M]

H.D., I support BK and like their work and wish them the best, BUT I don't think Andy is able to tell how patronizing, arrogant, confrontational and lacking in evidence his posts can be. His style is that of a bully and he doesn't realize that almost every time he types he looses potential customers.

Andy you should be able to say what you want but you really need to work on how you say it. Your tone is simply dreadful. Sorry Mate. Try to offer positive comments about your own stuff without bagging others or shoving alleged expertise in people's faces..........

Now combine that hubris with my experience of a BK M422 that was no better than a bad mall jacket, online insults, behind the scenes badgering of forum members who dare to question the "emperors" style/clothes, a "don't call us, well call you" email philosophy, knowledge of folks being offered "sweeteners" to post favorable reviews/not post criticisms, and my ongoing epic journey awaiting the ever elusive VH delivery while seeing multiple orders placed AFTER mine going out with that leather.....

The world of high end custom made leather jackets, and in particular, military reproductions is a very very small one.
You reap what you sow.

...Your work is amazing, let it speak for itself.

Then my BK M422 must have been an aberration.
I take back what I said above. To call it a "mall jacket" is a disservice to mall jackets.

Hard to sit back and see a company strut and crow about the quality of their products when your experience is just the opposite...and when there are so many other excellent jacket makers out there that are a pleasure to deal with who support their fellow jacket makers rather than continually try to stick a shiv between their ribs.

I'm hoping the fat lady has learned to sing since I last heard her.
So far after sitting through an apalling opening act all I've seen is "diva" behavior towards her audience and fellow singers.

 

[andyfalzon]

Why Jeff?

You forgot that it was us who killed Hoffa and JFK and recently threw in horse meat in those BK burgers.

What YOU like can only be the best for you. When you advise someone who is looking to buy you should be clear about that. What is best for you cannot necessarily be the actual best or what everyone else will like. When I talked about best, I meant what the industry refers to as “best” and the industry has certain very specific internationally accepted standards. It does not name something “best” because someone likes it. There are technical requirements that should be met to call it best. Best quality should be priced accordingly and when someone offers something that is not the best at an expensive price then you should think twice. This is a general truth and it does not apply only to leather. In 2 words, “caveat emptor”.

I will speak some more truth now. I want to be as clear and open as possible because other members will read this.
The unfortunate experience you had with the jacket we sold you is that you needed 44S and we sold you 44R.
This was due to miscommunication and error on my part. I admitted that before and sent you my humble apologies.
You are unfair (and you know it) to say that the jacket did not compare with mall jackets. The jacket had the most grainy goatskin you have ever seen, and the quality of materials, craftsmanship and attention to detail was perfect, (NOS Talon zipper, knits, button ect from the same suppliers as GW, lining and label exact match to original etc, perfect mouton quality). There were 2 disadvantages your jacket had. 1st it did not fit you correctly (for the reason explained above) and second the leather was stiff. The stiffness of the leather would go away after a while and this was reported by members of VLJ who bought those jackets and still praise them to this day. You complained about the stiffness, but I don’t remember seeing you complain about the stiffness of FQHH you bought from other vendors. Why is that? I wonder.

Yet, we took the feedback and replaced this leather with new which is exactly the same weight, pliability and finish with originals, so the touch, the feel and the drape is the same with original. They can be seen here:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.602958149734480.1073741886.540638042633158&type=3
and a jacket made with this leather here:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...325.1073741961.540638042633158&type=3&theater
We publicly announced this development, (facebook, forums etc) but you did not bother to enquire about this leather.

Also, you are mistaken about something. We have been advertising our horsehide as being the best, not the goatskin.
The development of our horsehide started long time before you ordered your goatskin jacket and its release which happened to take place after your bought your jacket has nothing to do with your complaining about the goatskin.

The other members who got their Victory horse jackets before you have all placed orders before you, but they received their jackets after we informed you that we run out of leather. At that time the leathers had been cut but the jackets were not assembled. The only exception is stanier, who got yours, due to a mistake of the cutter. He cut the hides in his size instead of your size. I took responsibility for this too.

Regarding the elusive Victory horse, we have explained many times and it was announced on our website previously that the Victory horsehide was developed by ourselves together with one of the best tanneries in the world. This means it is a special, custom made hide, made EXCLUSIVELY for us and eventually EXCLUSIVELY for you, our customers. For this reason the tannery do not keep it in stock. Every time we order it, the whole procedure has to start from zero. (OK, except that they don’t need to slaughter the horses). As mentioned also, this is a vegetable tanned leather made 100% by hand from start to finish. These tanning procedures take time. That’s why the long wait. Also, this hide is very expensive, (the most expensive there is) which forbids us from ordering stock that will last us e.g. for a year.

I quote this from an independent source and of course there are many others:
http://info.mannapro.com/mannaproan...ther-101-How-to-Identify-Quality-Leather-Tack

Most manufacturers prefer vegetable tanning; although it takes longer, the end result is a stronger and more water resistant leather. The tanning process can take months,
and ends with the hides being finished and dressed in a process called currying. Cheaper leather may actually have this coloring sprayed on, but quality leather will be finished by hand.

Regarding "don't call us, well call you",
I have said that we will let you know when we take delivery of the leathers. What else do you need? Let me know and I will gladly provide it. You can email us every other day to check if you wish.

Finally, the fat lady will sing and you will agree that one should not presume to know the outcome of an event which is still in progress. If the fat lady couldn’t sing we would have not asked you to wait, we would have gone to more outright solutions for our difference.

Regarding sweeteners,
Again you are being unfair Jeff. We have not offered sweeteners. We offered try on jackets to some members who asked them for fitting purposes. We continue this practice whenever possible and other vendors do the same. Those members were happy with what they saw and bought the jackets and then wrote absolutely honest reviews. We would welcome some criticism because it helps us improve ourselves. We also invite private or public comparison of our jackets with those of any other vendor. The comparison can be about leather, fit, details, craftsmanship, price, customer service, you name it. We have nothing to fear.


The fun gang of the 3, Butte, HD and you Jeff never miss an opportunity to tease us. I appreciate some humor but you don’t have to be mean and rude. Butte had got one of our very first jackets secondhand (which has nothing to do with what we produce today) but I don’t remember him complaining about the fit. HD apparently never bought or saw one, so how can he judge?. You Jeff bought one jacket that had the above issues and you seem to have decided that we suck indefinitely and possibly that everyone else who got a jacket from us and is happy with it should not be in his right mind. You accuse me of insult, but what you say may be an insult to those guys intelligence and critical ability to evaluate the jackets.

 

[andyfalzon]

H.D., I support BK and like their work and wish them the best, BUT I don't think Andy is able to tell how patronizing, arrogant, confrontational and lacking in evidence his posts can be. His style is that of a bully and he doesn't realize that almost every time he types he looses potential customers.

Andy you should be able to say what you want but you really need to work on how you say it. Your tone is simply dreadful. Sorry Mate. Try to offer positive comments about your own stuff without bagging others or shoving alleged expertise in people's faces. Your work is amazing, let it speak for itself.

Seb Lucas, thanks. We have also been receiving messages from others who congratulated us for, and I quote “having the balls to say the truth” in here.


I summarized my posts in this thread below but I don’t see anything patronizing, arrogant, confrontational lack of evidence, bullying and dreadful in them. I was trying to be informative to help other members. You call this “shoving alleged expertise” ?
There is plenty of evidence and information to be shared to whoever asks us.

Johnson and Langlitz make flying jackets?

There is nothing indicating the quality of one is less than the other.
It depends on how you define quality. How do you?

What I would like to know if anyone can quantify the quality difference...
Sure can.

+++

Crinkle, don't throw your money away on promises about quality. The no1 determinant of the price for a leather jacket should be leather quality. (Good stitching and lining is the easiest part). If the quality of the leather is not good enough but the price is high, then something is wrong. You got to keep looking. The best way to understand is to compare. Because you can't compare jackets, the best way is to compare samples. Vendors will send you their samples for free. Ask them to comment on the quality of their leathers. See their replies, see how their stories correspond to the samples you got.

That's the best way to go ahead. Don't get ripped off.

+++
ButteMT61, will you clean up your PM box so I can send you some private messages please?

+++

You are practically saying that if someone copies a good design that works well and throws in a crappy leather (because nobody can distinguish good quality) and some good customer service he hit the jackpot? He can then sell at high price because the jacket fits well? Is that it?

Everyone says he has good leather but can you tell the difference? The tools are there (e.g. leather chemists dictionary) but do people know how to use them?

What is good quality leather Jeff?
How is the "BEST" determined?
Do you know?

+++

There are many, but not the ones made by the popular brands. They sell brand name, not good quality. They are good but not excellent. The high price cannot be justified by the quality, only by the brand name.

Yet there are other, obscure and relatively unknown brands that most people never heard of, who specialize in high quality and make excellent jackets and use the highest quality leather. Naturally they cannot pay as much for advertisement so they have a very limited but loyal clientele.

+++

Hi Jeff,
I appreciate your reply, but you know this affair is not over yet. So let's have this conversation again after the fat lady sings.

To Crinkle: I do not think it is very wise to ask the other patients their opinion about the surgical operation that you are going to have when you can ask the doctor. It’s good to hear all opinions, but some people’s opinions should weigh more than others’. If I were in your shoes, I would ask as many ‘doctors’ as possible and then make up my mind. We are there to answer your 100 questions in a way that you will be able to understand all there is to know about good leathers and jackets.

 

[ButteMT61]

"Gang of 3"? Really? lol
How about I post up the PM's I've sent to you offering words meant to help you with your online (forum) presence? How about I post the PM's from you talking smack about other makers - trying to bate me into buying a BK jacket? Any good maker will acknowledge other good makers and be done. You simply can't - or won't.

I've grown beyond tired of your marketing tactics here and elsewhere. You've single-handedly managed to keep people away from VLJ with the posts you made there. Sure, you have a couple of supporters, but you've alienated just about everyone I chat with online.
Like someone else said earlier, if you make great jackets, they will sell themselves. You don't see the likes of the other top makers posting crap here to sway buyers.
Id' strongly suggest you do the same. You do yourself and BK no favors with this rhetoric.

And many of the "BK lovers" have sold their awesome jackets. We could barely get some to even post up pics! I sold mine as it was too small - nothing to do with BK, it was a second hand jacket from a forum member and just the wrong size.
I'm just shocked at this point that you guys haven't done everything to get Jeff his A-2. One guy, one jacket.

No more replies to you, and no more PM's. Good luck. You need it.

 

[wild_balls]

"Gang of 3"? Really? lol
How about I post up the PM's I've sent to you offering words meant to help you with your online (forum) presence? How about I post the PM's from you talking smack about other makers - trying to bate me into buying a BK jacket? Any good maker will acknowledge other good makers and be done. You simply can't - or won't.

I've grown beyond tired of your marketing tactics here and elsewhere. You've single-handedly managed to keep people away from VLJ with the posts you made there. Sure, you have a couple of supporters, but you've alienated just about everyone I chat with online.
Like someone else said earlier, if you make great jackets, they will sell themselves. You don't see the likes of the other top makers posting crap here to sway buyers.
Id' strongly suggest you do the same. You do yourself and BK no favors with this rhetoric.

And many of the "BK lovers" have sold their awesome jackets. We could barely get some to even post up pics! I sold mine as it was too small - nothing to do with BK, it was a second hand jacket from a forum member and just the wrong size.
I'm just shocked at this point that you guys haven't done everything to get Jeff his A-2. One guy, one jacket.

No more replies to you, and no more PM's. Good luck. You need it.

:eusa_clap