Quality vs Price...is there a compromise?

[Sloan1874]

I have several of the finest Shinki horse hides, but I've never made a jacket in my life. However, I'm willing to give it a go if somebody gives me a grand, just don't expect to see anything for a year though, this might take a while...

 

[Jeff M]

Well, maybe if you get enough samples, you can build your own jacket Jeff. lol

:lol:
Didn't think of that.

 

[ButteMT61]

:lol:
Didn't think of that.

If you have the best samples you can surely make the best jacket on your own.
There's a thread showing all the things you need to know about leather, but are too ignorant to understand

 

[Jeff M]

If you have the best samples you can surely make the best jacket on your own.
There's a thread showing all the things you need to know about leather, but are too ignorant to understand

And it's bliss......

 

[Seb Lucas]

Good leather is subjective, some love Norween FQHH, others have described it as inferior shoe leather. I do think that it's hard to get good lining and pocket material. Many a jacket I've bought was let down by thin and fragile cotton that needed replacing 12 months on.

 

[andyfalzon]

ButteMT61, will you clean up your PM box so I can send you some private messages please?

 

[ForestForTheTrees]

Crinkle,

You referenced a couple of threads that I started about jackets that I purchased from Johnson Leathers. Obviously I've said plenty about JL back in those threads.

In reference to your price/value question, my guess is that some of it comes down to how well known a maker is. Demand for jackets from the likes of Aero and Langlitz is high not only because of their quality, but also because of their popularity. As far as brands go, these two companies are great examples of the value of strong brand name recognition. Johnson Leather is simply not as well known as Langlitz and Aero. JL's brand is not as strong when compared with the other two companies They just continue go about their business with little fanfare, more or less behind the scenes. As I've noted before, I've purchased jackets from all three makers you've inquired about and in my experience, the quality of construction is certainly not directly proportional to the price they charge. All three make extremely solid products.

I'd also keep in mind that not everyone is looking for the same qualities/characteristics in the hides used to make a jacket. In my case, I had some pretty specific ideas about what I was looking for in the hides to be used. Basically, it helped that I knew exactly what I was looking for. Alan at JL goes out of his way to meet his customers needs and is both very helpful and informative to boot. But unless you know what you want, things can get a bit daunting.

Unlike many here, I don't collect leather jackets and as long as I don't outgrow those that I currently own, I'll probably never buy another one. Primarily because I'm very happy with the two JL jackets I own for street wear and the one Langlitz that I own for riding. Fortunately, I wasn't looking for a reproduction design. All I had to do was to please my own preferences. Best of all is that the jackets I own just keep getting better with time.

 

[andyfalzon]

I'll disagree here.

As the saying goes, it's the Indian not the arrow.
If the jacket maker doesn't have a good design, know how to fit a jacket well, have good customer support, it doesn't matter how "good" their leather they use is.

As a customer it's easy to get caught up in the marketing game of "this is the BEST leather around !" hype. You won't find too many jacket makers out there admitting that their leather just is mediocre or bad. Either they have the "best leather around" (that generally lasts for a few months till they find another leather to hype)...or, they tend to proceed quietly about their business.
Leather samples are great..but can be misleading. It can be very difficult to extrapolate how a leather will drape, how the graining will look, and get an impression of the color from a 3 or 4 inch piece of hide. I've certainly been burned going down that path.
Buy the jacket, not the leather. A great jacket will have leather you will think is great.
A bad jacket...no matter how wonderful the leather...is a bad jacket.

You are practically saying that if someone copies a good design that works well and throws in a crappy leather (because nobody can distinguish good quality) and some good customer service he hit the jackpot? He can then sell at high price because the jacket fits well? Is that it?

Everyone says he has good leather but can you tell the difference? The tools are there (e.g. leather chemists dictionary) but do people know how to use them?

What is good quality leather Jeff?
How is the "BEST" determined?
Do you know?

 

[pipvh]

I have to agree with Andy on this one. Leather jackets are ultimately about the leather, not the jacket. I've come to this conclusion after decades spent pawing through vintage clothing. Quality leather acquires its own personality and takes on some of its owner's. That could partly be because the best jackets are made by people who understand the concept of 'leather jacket.' I've never seen a fashion jacket, not even a $10,000 one, that was made out of decent leather.

 

[andyfalzon]

I've never seen a fashion jacket, not even a $10,000 one, that was made out of decent leather.

There are many, but not the ones made by the popular brands. They sell brand name, not good quality. They are good but not excellent. The high price cannot be justified by the quality, only by the brand name.

Yet there are other, obscure and relatively unknown brands that most people never heard of, who specialize in high quality and make excellent jackets and use the highest quality leather. Naturally they cannot pay as much for advertisement so they have a very limited but loyal clientele.

 

[Crinkle]

Time to request some samples then it sounds like.

 

[Jeff M]

You are practically saying that if someone copies a good design that works well and throws in a crappy leather (because nobody can distinguish good quality) and some good customer service he hit the jackpot? He can then sell at high price because the jacket fits well? Is that it?

Everyone says he has good leather but can you tell the difference? The tools are there (e.g. leather chemists dictionary) but do people know how to use them?

What is good quality leather Jeff?
How is the "BEST" determined?
Do you know?

Yes Andy, I do know.
It's what I like the "best". Not what somebody tries to shove down my throat or convince me of.
Now, a leather may be "high quality" by their standards, but I won't wear it if I find it uncomfortable/unpleasant to wear. No matter how "high grade" it is supposed to be.

I've had jacket makers (ahem) tell me they were using some of the best leather available on their jackets only to find the leather to be stiff, lifeless, featureless. Shortly after noting my dissatisfacton on the forums they started to advertise a "new" hide, even "better" then that which they were praising so highly when my order was placed. Funny, eh?

Similarly, I've seen some jacket makers (ahem) publicly criticize the quality of leather used by other jacket makers that I love the look and feel of and love to wear.
It may not be "high quality" leather in their books, but I don't care. It's what I like.

You miss my point.
It's not just about the leather.
A good jacket maker does it all.
Good leather.
Good design.
Quality workmanship.
Great customer service.
Lastly, I've found they tend to respect their peers, avoid hubris and disparaging the work of others. Carries over into the quality of thier jackets, how they do business and treat their customers.

 

[andyfalzon]

Hi Jeff,
I appreciate your reply, but you know this affair is not over yet. So let's have this conversation again after the fat lady sings.

 

[ButteMT61]

The fat lady died of old age...

 

[Edward]

I guess I'm not missing anything and it's just brand preference like anything else, Apple vs PC, Android vs iPhone, Coke vs Pepsi.

Brand preference and house style. Bill Kelso, Aero and Johnson, to name but three, are very different beasts, operate on different business models, and with, broadly, different design emphases. We're not really dealing with a like for like product which will be the same whoever you go with. It's more like choosing between a Vespa, a Royal Enfield and a Harley. You couldn't pay me enough to ride a Harley, and as a headshaver I have no need of a glorified hairdryer, so that's the Vespa out for me. Other people would only ever consider a Harley, while still others want all three. It's just personal choice.

I need to look at the 20 or so brands people suggested but I think I'll go with Johnson or Goodwear unless I find a better quality/price tradeoff.

Eastman seem too expensive and I just can't see what that extra $400 or so would get me.

Goodwear are pretty much universally regarded as the very most accurate A2 repros on the market nowadays, but if Eastman are beyond the upper end of what you're happy to spend, you can forget about a new Goodwear.

However, I will note that the jackets mentioned in the links you provided appear to be close to, if not in parity with, Aero and AL prices for similar jackets in comparable hides. So, it may be that in addition to being better known and hence having higher demand, the leather and fixtures make up a sizable portion of the difference between Aero and JL. And, as mentioned before, JL's website certainly doesn't do them any favors - their jackets are so much better looking in person and they offer more styles than listed.

I got a great used deal on a Johnson D pocket on eBay a few months ago. I've never dealt directly with the company, but the quality of this jacket really is superb. They are, by reputation, one of the best options if you are especially keen on something unique. This could, of course, bump up the price markedly (along with other features), but they are extremely competitive price-wise if you want something fairly straightforward. I agree that the website does them no favours.

As the saying goes, it's the Indian not the arrow.
If the jacket maker doesn't have a good design, know how to fit a jacket well, have good customer support, it doesn't matter how "good" their leather they use is.

Up to a point, I agree. The raw materials do need to be good for the whole to be good, but equally a poorly assembled, ill-fitting jacket will look nasty, no matter how good the hide from which it is made.

As a customer it's easy to get caught up in the marketing game of "this is the BEST leather around !" hype. You won't find too many jacket makers out there admitting that their leather just is mediocre or bad. Either they have the "best leather around" (that generally lasts for a few months till they find another leather to hype)...or, they tend to proceed quietly about their business.

Mn. I've seen that in action in many, many areas of consumer product, to the point where I've actually been put off buying. Was looking at a jacket on sale some time ago, but the manufacturer concerned marketed their newer jackets as so far superior, it actually put me off buying the one I was looking at. I'm sure it wasn't their intention to run down their older product, but that was the effect it had on me. Reminds me of the cartoon of Garfield watching a television commerical which blares "Our cat food is new and improved!" "Just think," says Garfield, "all this time I've been eating the old and inferior."

Leather samples are great..but can be misleading. It can be very difficult to extrapolate how a leather will drape, how the graining will look, and get an impression of the color from a 3 or 4 inch piece of hide. I've certainly been burned going down that path.

It's not easy. From a sample, I'm not sure whether I'd have chosen the steer from which my Highwayman is made, but I jumped on it as worth a punt owing to the vastly reduced price (one of the first 'blue label' jackets since Ken came back to Aero - actually it was an Apprentice Made before they had their own specific label). I'm really pleased I did - I love that jacket, and the steer has a drape that is missing in my FQHH jackets. The FQHH is ideal for the jackets I have it in, but the HWM has an authentic, period drape that I don't think FQHH would.

Regarding colour, I agree. Before I ordered my Bootlegger I nearly went with cherry, but was advised by Aero that for the look I was after, once made up into a jacket, as distinct from a small strip, it would be too bright for what I wanted. I took that advivce on board and went with the Cordovan - which turned out to be ideal.

Well, maybe if you get enough samples, you can build your own jacket Jeff. lol

lol Well, the pendulum has been swinging away from one-piece backs being the thing for a good five months now; the logical conclusion is the uber-multi-multi piece back...

Good leather is subjective, some love Norween FQHH, others have described it as inferior shoe leather. I do think that it's hard to get good lining and pocket material. Many a jacket I've bought was let down by thin and fragile cotton that needed replacing 12 months on.

Yes. Durability can be objective, but all else is subjective, even how it wears. Some prefer goat because it stays 'new' looking, while others choose a hide they can make look twenty years old over a weekend with a soak in the bath... horses for courses.

Lining and pockets is definitely one area I've seen fashion jackets skimp in over the years, though not so any of the brands that are very popular in these parts.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Yes Andy, I do know.
It's what I like the "best". Not what somebody tries to shove down my throat or convince me of.
Now, a leather may be "high quality" by their standards, but I won't wear it if I find it uncomfortable/unpleasant to wear. No matter how "high grade" it is supposed to be.

I've had jacket makers (ahem) tell me they were using some of the best leather available on their jackets only to find the leather to be stiff, lifeless, featureless. Shortly after noting my dissatisfacton on the forums they started to advertise a "new" hide, even "better" then that which they were praising so highly when my order was placed. Funny, eh?

Similarly, I've seen some jacket makers (ahem) publicly criticize the quality of leather used by other jacket makers that I love the look and feel of and love to wear.
It may not be "high quality" leather in their books, but I don't care. It's what I like.

You miss my point.
It's not just about the leather.
A good jacket maker does it all.
Good leather.
Good design.
Quality workmanship.
Great customer service.
Lastly, I've found they tend to respect their peers, avoid hubris and disparaging the work of others. Carries over into the quality of thier jackets, how they do business and treat their customers.

It's quite obvious..the (ahem) jacket maker you speak of is oblivious to how they come across to many in their tactics searching for customers as it continues on a regular basis. [huh]
HD

 

[Seb Lucas]

H.D., I support BK and like their work and wish them the best, BUT I don't think Andy is able to tell how patronizing, arrogant, confrontational and lacking in evidence his posts can be. His style is that of a bully and he doesn't realize that almost every time he types he looses potential customers.

Andy you should be able to say what you want but you really need to work on how you say it. Your tone is simply dreadful. Sorry Mate. Try to offer positive comments about your own stuff without bagging others or shoving alleged expertise in people's faces. Your work is amazing, let it speak for itself.

 

[ButteMT61]

Seb hit the nail on the head. A few times in one post.

 

[Interbak]

The truly great ones, like John Chapmann, don't constantly bombard us with their propaganda, they let their products and their customers do the talking.
The BK posts sound like a serious inferiority complex to me.

B

 

[HoosierDaddy]

H.D., I support BK and like their work and wish them the best, BUT I don't think Andy is able to tell how patronizing, arrogant, confrontational and lacking in evidence his posts can be. His style is that of a bully and he doesn't realize that almost every time he types he looses potential customers.

Andy you should be able to say what you want but you really need to work on how you say it. Your tone is simply dreadful. Sorry Mate. Try to offer positive comments about your own stuff without bagging others or shoving alleged expertise in people's faces. Your work is amazing, let it speak for itself.

Yep..and there's one just like him on the VLJ. For a while I even thought it was the same person. Still not sure that it isn't. Too bad. Must run in the family.. [huh]
HD