Please help me with formalwear for my wedding...

[LaMedicine]

Inside the left front, this name(?) is embroidered:

As near as I can tell, it's the characters 檻 and 飽 followed by a crudely-stitched katakana サ. Either it's the name "Oriaki" with an... interesting choice of characters, or... I don't know. Someone is sick and tired of their cage?

The first letter is 塩, shio/salt not 檻. It is probably pronounced Shiwaku. There is a group of islands called Shiwaku Shoto in Setonaikai that has some historical significance. Since it's a pretty rare name, the person who originally ordered this may be a direct descendant of the Shiwaku Suigun, a sea faring tribe/pirates.
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The katakana サprobably is the first letter of the first name of the person, or indicates which branch of the family, as it is likely that the Shiwaku clan would be common in a certain region.

 

[Edward]

Very nice morning coat indeed; look forward to seeing the full outfit put together. With respect to age, I claim no expertise, simply to note that length might be some clue. My understanding is that morning coats from the twenties and thirties came lower (down to, or just past, the knee) at the back than more recently produced examples. I see something similar with tailcoats.

 

[boushi_mania]

Very nice morning coat indeed; look forward to seeing the full outfit put together. With respect to age, I claim no expertise, simply to note that length might be some clue. My understanding is that morning coats from the twenties and thirties came lower (down to, or just past, the knee) at the back than more recently produced examples. I see something similar with tailcoats.

Perhaps, though the characters are written in post-1945 simplified style. ("Salt" in particular was 鹽 before the changeover.) Of course, the cursive, "written" style is what the newer forms were based on, so... [huh]

 

[Charlie Huang]

Morning coat's back from the tailor.

Here are some pictures.

First, the front:

A close-up of the sleeve:

As you can see, I had the cloth-covered buttons replaced with horn ones. I think it came out looking pretty nice. You can also get an idea of the material, which has a slight nap to it. The tailor said it was real high-class stuff.

The underside of the lapel:

I'd say the canvas is stitched in pretty well. (Not that I can tell, or anything.)

Inside the left front, this name(?) is embroidered:

As near as I can tell, it's the characters 檻 and 飽 followed by a crudely-stitched katakana サ. Either it's the name "Oriaki" with an... interesting choice of characters, or... I don't know. Someone is sick and tired of their cage?

The tails:

There would appear to be no significant flaws, this time.

Measuring tape for scale:

Shoulder:

I am told that this is the correct lay of the shoulder seam, which should always go at a backward-sloping angle from the collar to the sleeve.

Inside a sleeve:

I had to replace both sleeve linings, as they were coming apart and thoroughly nasty. I really have no idea how old this coat is.

A very good tailcoat indeed!

Tails: they are absolutely correct.

Buttons: I would have prefered polished horn but that is a matter of taste.

Shoulders: on tailcoats I have and have seen, there is no shoulder seam at all (the whole front, central back and vent panel each side is cut in one piece) but that is only a minor observation.

NB: Official retraction of above aforesaid comment about no shoulder seams on tailcoats!

Lapel: I would add a stem loop to the back to hold the stem of the buttonhole flower. Very easy to stitch in.

Do post a photo of you wearing everything when all is finished.

 

[boushi_mania]

Buttons: I would have prefered polished horn but that is a matter of taste.

It's what was available from the suppliers I could find. To be fair, though, they're shinier than the photos make them out to be.

Shoulders: on tailcoats I have and have seen, there is no shoulder seam at all (the whole front, central back and vent panel each side is cut in one piece) but that is only a minor observation.

Now that you mention it, a quick search turns up this page, which claims it's a feature of frock coats. Another holdover from a bygone era still adhered to in Japan?

 

[Edward]

It could be a holdover from an earlier style.... The Belfast-made morning coat I recently acquired (see http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=47627 ) has, along with notch lapels(!), what appears to be a shoulder seam. My feeling, based on avice in that thread plus what else I have learned elsewhere, is that it is a 1930s example of a somewhat less formal morning coat, perhaps a hangover from the days in which someone wore it on a daily basis..... oh, if only clothes could talk, eh?

 

[Lokar]

My frock coat and morning coat are constructed almost exactly the same (but, as I bought them at the same place, same time, and they have the same fit, I think they were owned by the same person). The shoulder seams on both goes from the left/right of the neck, but goes at an extreme angle, ending halfway down the back of the sleeve (a few inches below where yours ends in the photo).

 

[boushi_mania]

My frock coat and morning coat are constructed almost exactly the same (but, as I bought them at the same place, same time, and they have the same fit, I think they were owned by the same person). The shoulder seams on both goes from the left/right of the neck, but goes at an extreme angle, ending halfway down the back of the sleeve (a few inches below where yours ends in the photo).

Huh. Well, in that case, I'm at a loss. Apart from that, the materials and construction are what you'd expect from a bespoke (or at least made-to-measure) garment, so I'm left to conclude that it's simply a Japanese thing. I first really became interested in the cut of clothes after I came to Japan, and to my knowledge, I have never seen a morning coat without a shoulder seam...

 

[Charlie Huang]

It might be a tailor's convention then. I would imagine that to cut a coat without a shoulder seam would be more difficult given that the shoulders slant and that...

*goes to check carefully again*

Oh, I AM STUPID! There are shoulder seams on my tailcoats! :eusa_doh: :eusa_doh: :eusa_doh:

Sorry, I must have overlooked them as it was at night at that time and I must have assumed...

Official retraction of my previous aforesaid comment about no shoulder seams on tailcoats!

 

[Lokar]

I need to post pictures of the very strange arm on another morning coat I found. The inner arm seam is straight, but the outer arm has an extreme angle to it (circumference of 30cm at the cuff, about 35cm at the shoulder, and approaching 50cm at the elbow. The only way it doesn't wrinkle with loads of loose fabric is if I bend my elbows out, so it appears if I'm holding an invisible tray.

Perhaps it was cut especially for a servant who carried trays a lot. Who knows.

 

[Orgetorix]

I need to post pictures of the very strange arm on another morning coat I found. The inner arm seam is straight, but the outer arm has an extreme angle to it (circumference of 30cm at the cuff, about 35cm at the shoulder, and approaching 50cm at the elbow. The only way it doesn't wrinkle with loads of loose fabric is if I bend my elbows out, so it appears if I'm holding an invisible tray.

Perhaps it was cut especially for a servant who carried trays a lot. Who knows.

It may also have been cut for a dancer. Their coats are often cut with strange sleeve and shoulder setups because of the positions they hold their arms in.


As to shoulder seams, it'd be difficult or impossible to cut any type of coat without them. This is because, where the front and back panels meet to form that seam, the back panels are actually longer/wider than the fronts. Since the shoulder area on your body is convex in back and concave in the front, the backs need to be bigger than the fronts.

Here's the front and back patterns for a bespoke coat, laid together at the shoulder:

They're loosely basted together with the fullness (the extra length) distributed along the seam.

Then the fullness is eased or shrunk out of the cloth with the steam iron--a tough skill to acquire.

This is why, incidentally, the stripes on a striped suit don't line up perfectly at the shoulder. The photos above are from Tom Mahon's blog, where he explains the phenomenon more fully: http://www.englishcut.com/archives/000141.html

 

[Lokar]

It may also have been cut for a dancer. Their coats are often cut with strange sleeve and shoulder setups because of the positions they hold their arms in.

I thought that might be a possibility, but it looks so horrendously ugly unless the elbow is bent to at least (roughly) a 60 degree angle. Although, as I said it's too large for me (I bought it as a potential for a somewhat huge friend), so the arms look terrible regardless.

 

[Orgetorix]

I thought that might be a possibility, but it looks so horrendously ugly unless the elbow is bent to at least (roughly) a 60 degree angle. Although, as I said it's too large for me (I bought it as a potential for a somewhat huge friend), so the arms look terrible regardless.

Another possibility is that it may just have been cut for someone whose arm was permanently crooked. Bespoke tailors often compensate for such physical characteristics.

 

[Charlie Huang]

Boshi-kun, just to give you a taster as to what the CJ's button wrist glove would look like:

It does have real MOP buttons. The main glove is hand stitched whilst the hem, vent and buttonhole is machine stitched. It fits like a, er, you know...

These I ordered for normal spring/summer wear with one of my tweed suits, not for morning dress.

 

[boushi_mania]

*salivates*

Well, it's been a week and a half since I placed my order... so about another week and a half to go? I'll post pictures when I get them, amidst my frantic packing and re-packing as I prepare to move in with my fiancée. (I think the gloves are being sent to her house, but I can't quite recall...)

On another note, my shirt and collars have arrived from the Vintage Shirt Company and—*shakes fist at unseemly shipping*—E&R. The sleeves actually aren't terribly long, but I'll take it in to the tailor to see what he thinks. Although, as you predicted, I need different collar studs. An extra cameron collar (at 15.5") wouldn't hurt to practice with, either. And while you're at it, if you should feel generous enough to throw in an extra pair of balmoral boots, or some brown-and-white spectators, or some grey flannel trousers (32" waist), or a neat-figured bow tie gratis, well, I wouldn't object...

 

[Charlie Huang]

*salivates*

Well, it's been a week and a half since I placed my order... so about another week and a half to go? I'll post pictures when I get them, amidst my frantic packing and re-packing as I prepare to move in with my fiancée. (I think the gloves are being sent to her house, but I can't quite recall...)

Let's see, I ordered these on the 23rd Feb so it just took around a month to make (got them today).

On another note, my shirt and collars have arrived from the Vintage Shirt Company and—*shakes fist at unseemly shipping*—E&R. The sleeves actually aren't terribly long, but I'll take it in to the tailor to see what he thinks.

There should be no reason why the sleeves cannot be shortened. They just need to take the cuff off, cut off the desired length from the raw sleeve edge and sew the cuff back on. As long as it isn't shortened by over an inch, the vent gusset does not need to be moved up the sleeve (which would be more work).

Although, as you predicted, I need different collar studs. An extra cameron collar (at 15.5") wouldn't hurt to practice with, either. And while you're at it, if you should feel generous enough to throw in an extra pair of balmoral boots, or some brown-and-white spectators, or some grey flannel trousers (32" waist), or a neat-figured bow tie gratis, well, I wouldn't object...

Ha! Those would be a tad expensive...

 

[boushi_mania]

Let's see, I ordered these on the 23rd Feb so it just took around a month to make (got them today).

"But I want them now..."

Although, as you predicted, I need different collar studs. An extra cameron collar (at 15.5") wouldn't hurt to practice with, either. And while you're at it, if you should feel generous enough to throw in an extra pair of balmoral boots, or some brown-and-white spectators, or some grey flannel trousers (32" waist), or a neat-figured bow tie gratis, well, I wouldn't object...

Ha! Those would be a tad expensive...

Well, maybe I was half-joking about those things. But seriously, being in England, if you could help me with collar studs and an extra collar, I would be most appreciative.

 

[Charlie Huang]

Well, maybe I was half-joking about those things. But seriously, being in England, if you could help me with collar studs and an extra collar, I would be most appreciative.

Well, since I'm popping into London on Saturday, tell me what collar you want and the size and I'll get them for you.

 

[boushi_mania]

Well, since I'm popping into London on Saturday, tell me what collar you want and the size and I'll get them for you.

Sure thing -- check your PM's.

 

[boushi_mania]

My gloves came in from Chester Jefferies today!

As I requested, they are unlined grey chamois with a button closure at the wrist. They're also pretty snug (probably my doing, as I specifically asked for a tighter fit), though comfortable once I get them on--I just hope they stretch a bit after I've worn them a few times.

No pictures yet, as I'm in the midst of moving house, but with any luck, I'll get a few shots uploaded by the weekend.