Please help me with formalwear for my wedding...

[Edw8ri]

If you are getting married before 6pm, then you have some options. But following the traditional rules, black should not be worn before 6pm unless you are a clergyman.

Morning clothes are a possiblity. The morning equivelent of a tuxedo is the stroller coat. It is a gray sack coat worn with a dove gray waistcoat, gray striped trousers, a pleated shirt with a turn down collar and a gray tie.

The morning equivelent of full dress (white tie) is the cutaway. It is a gray tailcoat worn with the same trousers and waistcoat as a stroller. It may be worn with the same shirt and tie or it may be worn with a wing collar shirt and a cravat.

But if you are going to turn down the formality a bit, and if its a garden wedding that would seem appropriate, then a summer suit would be good, especially in a gray.

The idea of blue blazer and white trousers appeals strongly to me and would be a common choice in my part of the country. And a panama or boater would go nicely.

 

[boushi_mania]

Recent purchases

Thanks, everyone, for all the helpful replies. It would appear I'm making progress.

After the scouring the internet and shops around Osaka, I've managed to acquire most of what I need for my wedding this August. This includes several strategic eBay purchases.

First, this auction.

I'm not sure of the vintage, but the trousers are made by Moss Bros. This could make them ex-hire (the adjuster in the back is perhaps evidence of this), but if they are, they're excellent quality: all-wool, high-waisted, button fly, buttons for braces, and the only obvious wear to the fabric is where the jacket (or tailcoat) will cover it up.

The pattern, and a close-up:

Button fly:

Adjuster (I may have it removed and the slacks taken in, but it stays for now):

I was a bit concerned about the stain on the back of the right leg, but one good dry-cleaning later, it's almost entirely gone: only a little bit left, and it's barely visible even to me.

So, that takes care of the trousers. I've also gone ahead and gotten this; more on that when it gets here.

I'm also considering this shirt, which would basically leave me with only the waistcoat to worry about. If I have it made, it would be the single most expensive item I buy, but I suppose it's worth it...

 

[Lokar]

If you are getting married before 6pm, then you have some options. But following the traditional rules, black should not be worn before 6pm unless you are a clergyman.

The morning equivelent of full dress (white tie) is the cutaway. It is a gray tailcoat worn with the same trousers and waistcoat as a stroller. It may be worn with the same shirt and tie or it may be worn with a wing collar shirt and a cravat.

That's not true. Black is fine before 6pm (frock coats and morning coats are most common in black). A morning suit (a morning coat/cutaway coat, _not_ a tailcoat) is grey, with a matching waistcoat and trousers. Morning _dress_ is a black morning coat, with cashmere stripe trousers and a waistcoat (generally not black, and definitely not cashmere striped).

Morning suit:

Morning dress:

Morning dress is more formal, for the record.



Those trousers look perfect, boushi_mania. Hope the morning coat fits.

 

[Edward]

Wasn't it the PoW who eventually became (briefly) Edward VIII who was turned away from the Royal box at Ascot by his own father for daring to be so informal as to wear a grey morning suit instead of morning dress?

I agree, in terms of formal daywear , the grey morning suit is less formal (perhaps on a par with stroller? Interesting question there....). Grey cutaway morning coat would traditionally only have been worn at Ascot, although it was also considered acceptable for the groom and the father of the bride to wear grey cutaway at a wedding, but none of the other men. The groom was also permitted to go for the more relaxed option of grey trousers too (so, a morning suit, then).

I'm a big fan of the cutaway morning coat, myself - so much more flattering on the figure than a square-cut frock coat, especially for those of us more rotund than might be ideal, or those who are of a shorter stature. IMO, the square fronted coat can notg only add bulk, but also can have a tendency to cut one off at the knees. I've worn both at various weddings, and definitely preferred the cutaway. (That said, I ievitably have an eye open for a nice, vintage frock coat to add to my formal daywear collection.... ).

Boushi_mania, your trousers look great. They likely are ex-hire, though most of what is available to hire nowadays would be a lower, more contemporary waist, and wouldn't be designed for wearing with braces. FWIW, if you can find the right look / cut (as you have), ex-wedding hire can be a great way to buy formal daywear. I was told by the place that did my brother's wedding outfits for the men that they used at least the coats for a maximum of six events each before repalcing them. "That way, your outfit always looks new in your wedding photos", they said. What itg does mean is that if you find somewhere selling exhire bargains, you can do very nicely out of buying something hardly worn....

 

[Lokar]

I find that the double breasted frock coat (which, as far as I can see, seems hyper-formal - even in the Paget Holmes illustrations, they're only worn by the peerage, or at weddings) can do that a bit, although mine fits so perfectly that the waist makes me look somewhat less rotund, and as such, taller, than usual.

If I ever find a single breasted frock, however, I'll do what I've seen most actors (and, again, Paget illustrations) do - keep the frock unbuttoned. Shows all of your legs, giving the appearance of height (especially with some nice high waisted trousers). You can also put your hands in your trouser pockets that way, so they curve back somewhat like a hybrid of a tailcoat and morning coat with your hands holding the tails back.

Speaking of frock coats (sorry for the hijack!), a lot of the times when I've seen them worm historically, they were worn with light grey trousers. Does anyone know what these are? Any names, or even material used?

 

[daizawaguy]

Jantzen shirts in Hong Kong, avaliable through the web, have a single custom made shirt for HKD 360 - US 40 or so...I can vouch for the quality work and very fine cloth they use. Postage is $5 or so...try them for that special occasion

 

[Charlie Huang]

Wasn't it the PoW who eventually became (briefly) Edward VIII who was turned away from the Royal box at Ascot by his own father for daring to be so informal as to wear a grey morning suit instead of morning dress?

That was because an obscure member of the royal family had died and so everyone was in mourning black.

 

[Charlie Huang]

Those cashmere stripes are vintage ex-hire. They most certainly do not make them like that anymore with the button fly, etc. you might want to get the tailor to remove the adjustment belt and re-cut that section so it is sized to fit you.

As for the shirt I would really recommend a white tunic with a starched detachable turn-down collar. It really looks the business. Place to get is the Vintage Shirt Company.

That should be coupled with a good wedding tie which should be plain silver or black and white houndstooth. Ebay or your local suit shops should stock those. Avoid wing collars with Ascots as they look contrived especially when done badly.

The waistcoat ought to be grey wool or buff linen in SB or DB form (with lapels). Can be had from ebay or RTW (I would recommend Ede & Ravenscroft).

Shoes: plain black Oxford with toe-caps. Must be highly polished.

 

[boushi_mania]

Those cashmere stripes are vintage ex-hire. They most certainly do not make them like that anymore with the button fly, etc. you might want to get the tailor to remove the adjustment belt and re-cut that section so it is sized to fit you.

Actually, that's the first thing up. Before I touch the morning coat and its, er... special vent design, I'm getting this done. I've discovered that, thanks to some creative snipping under the front hem, I can't get it taken down as much in front as I'd like, but at least vintage illustrations show plenty of diagonal front-to-back profiles. And if it still isn't entirely ideal, I suppose it's an excuse to look for vintage spats?

As for the shirt I would really recommend a white tunic with a starched detachable turn-down collar. It really looks the business. Place to get is the Vintage Shirt Company.

Looks like they do have some nice shirts... though I'll have to do something about the sleeves. Would that be something to adjust at a tailor? Find some sleeve garters?

I think I'd also prefer a Cameron collar. The Burlington one is awfully narrow. Luke Eyres makes one, but I don't really need 6 of them...

That should be coupled with a good wedding tie which should be plain silver or black and white houndstooth. Ebay or your local suit shops should stock those. Avoid wing collars with Ascots as they look contrived especially when done badly.

I've got a number of ties stocked up now, thanks to looking around. I'll post a picture of all of them a bit later. Though, perhaps I shouldn't have made the criteria how much moire they give in digital photos... lol

The waistcoat ought to be grey wool or buff linen in SB or DB form (with lapels). Can be had from ebay or RTW (I would recommend Ede & Ravenscroft).

I'll have to ask them about the length. The problem with Pakeman, Catto and Carter was that theirs was a good 3 or 4 inches too long. I do have a potential option in reserve, which is a mail-order tailoring service... but I'm nervous about screwing up my measurements and getting back something that doesn't fit.

Shoes: plain black Oxford with toe-caps. Must be highly polished.

Done well in advance of even getting engaged, unless I can find some high quality galosh-top boots that are on sale for cheap (doubtful). I suppose I might be able to find some better quality shoes in the same standard Oxford, though I really don't think people will be staring at my soles enough to be wondering whether they're Goodyear-welted leather or cheap rubber.

 

[boushi_mania]

OK... In the past few weeks, I've:

• gotten my trousers altered to a better length;
• purchased off eBay, then returned, a morning coat which had... problems;
• got some sock-suspenders for my suit, which should also work well with my formal rig;
• bought a collarless dress shirt (and sleeve garters) from the Vintage Shirt Company;
• bought a cameron collar from Ede & Ravenscroft (RIDICULOUS shipping!);
• received the top hat I bought from metropd; and
• remembered that I have a very elegant cane given by the college I graduated from, which I have never used.

but the main reason I'm writing this post is, I just thrifted a morning coat for $16!!

It's black, and has a little texture to it, possibly barathea.The length and shoulders are good, and I think the chest/waist should be OK without much (or possibly any) alteration; need to try it on with my other things first, and see. The main things I need to do are to fix the loose lining in the left sleeve, and replace the (frock coat-style) cloth-covered buttons with shiny black horn ones.

But once I've got everything fitting, that basically leaves the waistcoat as the only necessity left. (I could go for different gloves and some grey spats, but I'm not complaining...) Maybe I should just bite the bullet and get it made...?

 

[Charlie Huang]

Shirt sleeves: get the tailor to shorten them to the correct length. This is what I did for the tunic shirt I got from VSC (I imagine the same as yours). Wear the morning coat when at the tailors so they length is correct.

Buttons: personally, unless they are damaged, missing or are really ugly I would leave them since they were intended for the coat by the person who bespoke(?) and made it. If it ain't broke, etc.

Collars: I do know about the ridiculous shipping prices of certain UK tailors... It would be worth buying a bunch than a singluar item. Actually, you could have just asked me to buy it for you and I'd have shipped it to you for far less (no more than £5 methinks). You do have some studs to attach it to the short, don't you?

Coat: congradulations on the coat! I await pics in anticipation.

Waistcoat: if you do get it made make sure you tell them how high the rise of your trousers are and where you want the waistcoat hem to end. This should ideally be 1" or 1 1/2" below the trouser waistband. What I would do is put on an existing waistcoat and use the shoulder seam of that to measure the length from. Betters still is if your tailor could make it for you then you could show them exactly where (an option for overseas MTO is to wear your coat and stripes, take a photo and draw a line where you want the hem to reach on the image and e-mail it off, etc. coupled with measurements taken by your tailor.) Also, research for photos of good examples of the waistcoat you want and get said tailor to copy it. BTW, what is the waistcoat you want? colour, SB/DB?

Spats, gloves, etc: You don't really need spats (in fact, it might be too costly to be worth the effort unless you REALLY want to wear them). Gloves, depends on your budget but I would recommend Chester Jefferies: lemon (or grey) chamois hand-made City Gent pattern (http://charlesrupertdomeki.wordpress.com/2009/12/10/chester-jefferies-glovemakers/), maybe with wrist-button closure if you want it to be really tidy. Gloves would be taken off before entering the venue.

Shoes: the only thing important is that they need to be highly polished that they are almost like patent (decent qualoty shoes should be able to achieve this to some degree). It gives a good impression (I've had many a time when people just came up to me and remarked how shiny my Oxfords were; Barkers' Arnold which are inexpensive). If it won't polish to a good shine and remain 'matty' then you really need to look for a pair that will. Of course, concerntrate on the main bits and afterwards, if there is enough money left, go for a shoe shopping trip.

 

[boushi_mania]

Shirt sleeves: get the tailor to shorten them to the correct length. This is what I did for the tunic shirt I got from VSC (I imagine the same as yours). Wear the morning coat when at the tailors so they length is correct.

All right. I actually have one bespoke shirt which I used to judge the need for alterations on the morning coat's sleeves, as my arms are slightly different lengths, so that should be easy to judge by, as well.

Buttons: personally, unless they are damaged, missing or are really ugly I would leave them since they were intended for the coat by the person who bespoke(?) and made it. If it ain't broke, etc.

Actually, I would, except that a couple of them are discolored from age. They're the same frock-coat style I was thinking about getting before, but as long as I have to change some of them, I might as well replace them all....

Collars: I do know about the ridiculous shipping prices of certain UK tailors... It would be worth buying a bunch than a singluar item. Actually, you could have just asked me to buy it for you and I'd have shipped it to you for far less (no more than £5 methinks). You do have some studs to attach it to the short, don't you?

Now, you tell me!? :eusa_doh: Ah, well... I'll know for next time.

As for the studs, I have some, but I think they might all be back ones. They're all the same shape...

Coat: congratulations on the coat! I await pics in anticipation.

You'll have to wait a bit longer. I rushed it in to the tailor, who congratulated me on a superior find, and deemed the only necessary alterations to be sleeve-lining replacement and lengthening the right sleeve slightly. He has mixed feelings about changing the buttons to horn from the "correct" woven fabric pattern, but did comment that having 3 sleeve-buttons in a spaced, frock-coat-like configuration was a bit unusual.

Anyhow, I'll let him take care of the necessary things first, then worry about the buttons. But even with alterations, it comes out to less than my previous failure.** *

Waistcoat: if you do get it made make sure you tell them how high the rise of your trousers are and where you want the waistcoat hem to end. This should ideally be 1" or 1 1/2" below the trouser waistband. What I would do is put on an existing waistcoat and use the shoulder seam of that to measure the length from. Betters still is if your tailor could make it for you then you could show them exactly where (an option for overseas MTO is to wear your coat and stripes, take a photo and draw a line where you want the hem to reach on the image and e-mail it off, etc. coupled with measurements taken by your tailor.) Also, research for photos of good examples of the waistcoat you want and get said tailor to copy it. BTW, what is the waistcoat you want? colour, SB/DB?

I'm leaning towards a Japanese, earthquake-resistant brick-and-mortar-facsimile tailoring outfit, Batak Tailor. The mail-order place was cheaper, but I didn't see the kind of fabric I wanted.

Anyhow, getting measured directly while wearing my morning coat and striped trousers will help ensure a proper length, as well as the correct amount showing above the coat's closure. (They also had a very vintage-esque pattern for the dove-grey DB waistcoat I want, which is what first grabbed my attention.)

Spats, gloves, etc: You don't really need spats (in fact, it might be too costly to be worth the effort unless you REALLY want to wear them). Gloves, depends on your budget but I would recommend Chester Jefferies: lemon (or grey) chamois hand-made City Gent pattern (http://charlesrupertdomeki.wordpress.com/2009/12/10/chester-jefferies-glovemakers/), maybe with wrist-button closure if you want it to be really tidy. Gloves would be taken off before entering the venue.

Duly noted. I think I like suede a bit more than chamois, though they're not terribly different in texture.

Shoes: the only thing important is that they need to be highly polished that they are almost like patent (decent qualoty shoes should be able to achieve this to some degree). It gives a good impression (I've had many a time when people just came up to me and remarked how shiny my Oxfords were; Barkers' Arnold which are inexpensive). If it won't polish to a good shine and remain 'matty' then you really need to look for a pair that will. Of course, concerntrate on the main bits and afterwards, if there is enough money left, go for a shoe shopping trip.

Fair enough. In which case, it looks like I'm nearly there...!

 

[Charlie Huang]

Studs: you do understand that I'm on about collar studs such as these:

One is short for the back and one is longer for the front. As for assembly instructions: http://www.bownsbespoke.com/lukeeyres.htm

Personally, I tie the tie, slip it into the collar before attaching it to the shirt and then putting the shirt on (slipping my head through the loop of the tie-collar) which I feel is easier. I suggest you practice for a bit but not too much that the only collar you have loses its virility (actually, if I were a beginner, I'd have bought two collars and practice on one of them to death whilst the other left pristine for the day)...

Buttons: you could just re-dye them black but that might be another unnecessary bother in the whole scheme of things.

Waistcoat: make sure the buttons are MOP. And have four welt pockets (trust me, they do come in handy from putting things in like pocket watches, money, etc). When the coat is worn and buttoned up, the waistcoat should only slightly peak out the top and bottom (no more than 2" from the valley points).

Gloves: the leather should be thin and light otherwise it might get sweaty especially in the summer. When you take them off, they should be put in one of the tail pockets (if any) or carried together with the topper (which should be handed to the best man or groomsman for safe keeping during the ceremony; actually, this is better to avoid you fumbling around with you coat trying to put the gloves in the pocket which would look slightly undignified).

Trousers: forgot to ask, you do have braces to be worn with the trousers, don't you?

 

[boushi_mania]

Studs: you do understand that I'm on about collar studs such as these:
http://www.stanley-ley.co.uk/acatalog/studslarge.jpg
One is short for the back and one is longer for the front. As for assembly instructions: http://www.bownsbespoke.com/lukeeyres.htm

Hmm... all of mine are front-style. Perhaps I'll seek out one for the back.

Personally, I tie the tie, slip it into the collar before attaching it to the shirt and then putting the shirt on (slipping my head through the loop of the tie-collar) which I feel is easier. I suggest you practice for a bit but not too much that the only collar you have loses its virility (actually, if I were a beginner, I'd have bought two collars and practice on one of them to death whilst the other left pristine for the day)...

Sounds complicated, but I'll persevere. For what it's worth, I also picked up a wing collar from the Vintage Shirt Company because it wasn't that expensive. It's not exactly the same, but I could practice with that...

Buttons: you could just re-dye them black but that might be another unnecessary bother in the whole scheme of things.

I wouldn't know what to do. I'll decide over the next few days which buttons to use, I suppose. I have seen some old illustrations where this sort of button is indeed used on morning coats, but it does give a very Victorian air...

Waistcoat: make sure the buttons are MOP. And have four welt pockets (trust me, they do come in handy from putting things in like pocket watches, money, etc). When the coat is worn and buttoned up, the waistcoat should only slightly peek out the top and bottom (no more than 2" from the valley points).

I'll keep that in mind, but I may have to fudge the dimensions slightly—as high-waisted as the trousers are, the waist of the coat is also pretty high, perhaps higher. I will, however, stress to the tailors to make the amount showing as minimal as possible considering the circumstances.

Gloves: the leather should be thin and light otherwise it might get sweaty especially in the summer. When you take them off, they should be put in one of the tail pockets (if any) or carried together with the topper (which should be handed to the best man or groomsman for safe keeping during the ceremony; actually, this is better to avoid you fumbling around with you coat trying to put the gloves in the pocket which would look slightly undignified).

Understood. (Might I ask how much those nice lemon chamois gloves ran you?)

Trousers: forgot to ask, you do have braces to be worn with the trousers, don't you?

Of course. They have leather button tabs when I think silk ones would be classier (and bulge less under the waistcoat), but they'll work.

 

[Charlie Huang]

Studs: you do need a back one otherwise it will cause discomfort at the back if you use the long one (the extra length will cause the stud back to poke you at the back of the neck).

Collar: well wing collars are easier to put on that fold-downs as you don't have to contend with slipping the tie in the collar fold gap. I'm sure you'll be okay.

Gloves: the lemon chamois came down to around £48 (special order). This is cheap compared to Pickett's that charge £125-150 a pair!

 

[boushi_mania]

Gloves: the lemon chamois came down to around £48 (special order). This is cheap compared to Pickett's that charge £125-150 a pair!

I'll say!

At any rate, a brief email exchange indicates they'd charge £54 to do the City Gent style in grey chamois with a button closure. (Should check and see if that'd be mother-of-pearl.) But, shall I be stingy and save £6 by going with the machine-made Man About Town, or just pony up for the handmade? (Actually, I'm rather drawn to the cleaner lines of the former, but handcrafted is handcrafted...)

 

[Charlie Huang]

Believe you me, Boshi. Hand-made is more beautiful. In fact, I have one machine made glove from them and would buy nothing but hand made from them from now on as the quality is just far better. You should know the subtleties of wabi-sabi handiwork in this case.

 

[boushi_mania]

Believe you me, Boshi. Hand-made is more beautiful. In fact, I have one machine made glove from them and would buy nothing but hand made from them from now on as the quality is just far better. You should know the subtleties of wabi-sabi handiwork in this case.

Hmm... now that you mention it, the subtle imperfections of handmade work (that is, the irregularities that have nothing to do with the quality) do have a certain charm that mass-produced items lack, rather like a self-tied bow tie versus a pre-tied model.

Well, I'm sold. lol

....Aaaand they're ordered. I've just sent off an email to confirm that they're aware of the special requirements on my order, but with any luck I should be all set.

 

[Charlie Huang]

Well, I look forward to seeing them! Mines is more or less the same but in lemon and without the button closure. I'm thinking of ordering the same pair that you're getting in the future so I can then match my grey waistcoat.

 

[boushi_mania]

Morning coat's back from the tailor.

Here are some pictures.

First, the front:

A close-up of the sleeve:

As you can see, I had the cloth-covered buttons replaced with horn ones. I think it came out looking pretty nice. You can also get an idea of the material, which has a slight nap to it. The tailor said it was real high-class stuff.

The underside of the lapel:

I'd say the canvas is stitched in pretty well. (Not that I can tell, or anything.)

Inside the left front, this name(?) is embroidered:

As near as I can tell, it's the characters 檻 and 飽 followed by a crudely-stitched katakana サ. Either it's the name "Oriaki" with an... interesting choice of characters, or... I don't know. Someone is sick and tired of their cage?

The tails:

There would appear to be no significant flaws, this time.

Measuring tape for scale:

Shoulder:

I am told that this is the correct lay of the shoulder seam, which should always go at a backward-sloping angle from the collar to the sleeve.

Inside a sleeve:

I had to replace both sleeve linings, as they were coming apart and thoroughly nasty. I really have no idea how old this coat is.