Ok, so some things in the golden era were not too cool...

[vitanola]

That's absurd. Even if you believe in the disease concept, the number one rule is that while you may not be responsible for the disease, you DO have the power and responsibility to stay sober.

I gather that you've never had to try to help a loved one who was fighting the DT's, have you? Just stopping can be fatal.

 

[rjb1]

We have two parallel discussions going on: Zoning/Property-rights and Drinking/drugs.
What follows only deals with the zoning/property rights issue. I was struck by the two previous views of the people from the South (as am I). I tend to agree with their more absolutist property-rights views, and a lot of people in the South do, also. Contrast this with LizzieM's statement about zoning issues in her part of the country: "We have pretty strict zoning here, and have for many years -- and we like it that way."
Here is a direct quote from a newspaper article about a Southern small-town discussion (and more) of proposed zoning regulations.
"Meeting Over Land Laws Ends in Brawl"
Altamont, TN (AP)
'Angry residents overturned a table and one man punched a commissioner in the mouth during a Grundy County Planning Commission meeting over proposed subdivision regulations.
More than 270 residents crowded into a room at Altamont City Hall on Monday for the meeting on proposed subdivision regulations, saying it would result in land-use zoning laws.
"They are going to try and tell me what I can or can't do with my land," one resident said. "I will die and go to hell before I let that happen."
When a speaker asked for all who opposed the rules to stand up, everyone stood.
A heated debate among residents and officials ended when some men stormed the commissioners' table and overturned it, knocking Commission Chairman Ralph Rieben to the floor.
As he got to his feet, one of the men slugged him in the chin with his fist.'

I have saved that article for several years, because I think it sums up the attitude toward zoning and other regulations held by a number of Southerners. Note that 270 people showed up at the meeting in a small town, and they were almost unanimous in their attitude about the issue.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The North and the South are two very different nations and always have been. Even the Civil War didn't change that -- if anything, it made it even more obvious. The result has been like a hundred-and-fifty-year-long dysfunctional marriage.

 

[sheeplady]

In regards to the zoning, I have lived the vast majority of my life in NY state, specifically upstate. The area I currently live in (a relatively large city) has zoning, but no HOAs. HOAs are seen very negatively by most of the population here, and they only exist the most expensive neighborhood.

The area I am moving to has no zoning and I think anyone who proposed an HOA would be shot. There's very few restrictions: You can't put a tower more than 100 feet tall on your property without a permit (HAMs excluded) and you must have your house number displayed. Those are the only things that are restricted by the town.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I gather that you've never had to try to help a loved one who was fighting the DT's, have you? Just stopping can be fatal.

I gather you've never known an alcoholic who stopped drinking.

 

[HudsonHawk]

The North and the South are two very different nations and always have been. Even the Civil War didn't change that -- if anything, it made it even more obvious. The result has been like a hundred-and-fifty-year-long dysfunctional marriage.

I would suggest it's as much of an East/West thing as a North/South one. People who live west of the Mississippi tend to view themselves more independent and of pioneer stock, less reliant, and subsequently less tolerant of government rules. Moreso than folks in the South, from my experience.

 

[LizzieMaine]

In regards to the zoning, I have lived the vast majority of my life in NY state, specifically upstate. The area I currently live in (a relatively large city) has zoning, but no HOAs. HOAs are seen very negatively by most of the population here, and they only exist the most expensive neighborhood.

The area I am moving to has no zoning and I think anyone who proposed an HOA would be shot. There's very few restrictions: You can't put a tower more than 100 feet tall on your property without a permit (HAMs excluded) and you must have your house number displayed. Those are the only things that are restricted by the town.

Towns in Maine are *required* to have zoning, and a written comprehensive plan that lays out how the town intends to control land use in the future. Much of this stems from abuses in the early part of the 20th Century by large landholders enforcing their will on small communities -- the imposition of zoning was seen not as an imposition on individual rights, but a protection of them. It still works that way here -- a few years back much of my neighborhood was threatened by plans to build a Walgreens megadrug store, and the company pressured the city to grant a special zoning exception allowing this. This would have "brought jobs," as in minimum wage, but it would have completely dislocated several streets worth of working-class homes. We stopped this from happening, and the zoning remained unchanged. That's why we have zoning here, and that's why we resist any attempts by big money interests to bribe our elected representatives into selling us out.

Homeowners Associations are strictly a middle-class thing. They probably have such things in Portland and Falmouth and other yuppie-transplant enclaves, but we don't have any need for them here. No doubt we're the undesirables the HOA crowd would want to keep out anyway.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Homeowners Associations are strictly a middle-class thing.

Perhaps in Maine, but not everywhere. Here, they provide the very function you describe as zoning laws providing. And they are not limited to middle/upper class neighborhoods.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Do these exist in old naturally-evolved neighborhoods, or is it primarily a subdivision thing? I suspect the latter -- the whole concept of the HOA is a creation of postwar suburbia, instituted by land developers to protect the uniformity of their subdivisions: Levittown was one of the first, if not *the* first, places to have an HOA, and its uniformity was the stuff of legend.

Neighborhoods which weren't created on a drafting table, on the other hand, don't have any need for HOAs. They were never uniform to begin with, and therefore there's no expectation of it from the people who live there.

Zoning governs how the land can be used consistent with the type of neighborhood it is, but it doesn't tell you you can't paint your house purple if you want to, or that you can't hang your washing in the back yard. We had a purple house in the next block, which didn't bother anybody, and everybody in this part of town uses a clothesline, because that's the kind of neighborhood it is.

Subdivisions are the high fructose corn syrup of housing. Blech.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Do these exist in old naturally-evolved neighborhoods, or is it primarily a subdivision thing? I suspect the latter -- the whole concept of the HOA is a creation of postwar suburbia, instituted by land developers to protect the uniformity of their subdivisions: Levittown was one of the first, if not *the* first, places to have an HOA, and its uniformity was the stuff of legend.

Neighborhoods which weren't created on a drafting table, on the other hand, don't have any need for HOAs. They were never uniform to begin with, and therefore there's no expectation of it from the people who live there.

Zoning governs how the land can be used consistent with the type of neighborhood it is, but it doesn't tell you you can't paint your house purple if you want to, or that you can't hang your washing in the back yard. We had a purple house in the next block, which didn't bother anybody, and everybody in this part of town uses a clothesline, because that's the kind of neighborhood it is.

Subdivisions are the high fructose corn syrup of housing. Blech.

They are everywhere, even the older neighborhoods. Houses that are 120-years old are subject to HOAs. Of course many have rules about what color you can paint your house, or whether or not you can have 37 junk cars in your yard, but they're also the only thing that preserves them as residential neighborhoods and keeps the huge corporations from tearing down the houses to put up that monstrous Walgreens or an oil refinery.

 

[LizzieMaine]

They are everywhere, even the older neighborhoods. Houses that are 120-years old are subject to HOAs. Of course many have rules about what color you can paint your house, or whether or not you can have 37 junk cars in your yard, but they're also the only thing that preserves them as residential neighborhoods and keeps the huge corporations from tearing down the houses to put up that monstrous Walgreens or an oil refinery.

I'd rather have the government protecting my neighborhood, thanks. An HOA is the equivalent of a "company union," and is about as trustworthy.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I'd rather have the government protecting my neighborhood, thanks. An HOA is the equivalent of a "company union," and is about as trustworthy.

Folks here would rather have the residents decide what they want and don't want, not the government. I agree, and I think that's an even more pure form of that social contract you talked about yesterday.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Around here, we *are* the government. I know every member of our city council and zoning board personally, and they know whose interests they represent. And they know who'll they'll face in the street if they screw up.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Around here, we *are* the government. I know every member of our city council and zoning board personally, and they know whose interests they represent. And they know who'll they'll face in the street if they screw up.

We are the HOA too. And we'd rather have the issues in our neighborhood decided by the folks who live in our neighborhood, as opposed to those who live 20 miles away having a say so.

 

[LizzieMaine]

We are the HOA too. And we'd rather have the issues in our neighborhood decided by the folks who live in our neighborhood, as opposed to those who live 20 miles away having a say so.

Nobody in my town lives twenty miles away.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Nobody in my town lives twenty miles away.

I understand. But ours is a slightly bigger town. So we have to go with what works for us.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Sounds more like a way of preserving the fiction of being "anti-government" while setting up a simulacrum of government to do what a government does. But as you say, whatever works for you.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Sounds more like a way of preserving the fiction of being "anti-government" while setting up a simulacrum of government to do what a government does. But as you say, whatever works for you.

I think it's a way of keeping "government" smaller, and decisions more local in an otherwise enormous municipality. We do schools the same way, administered locally rather than at the city/county/state level...perhaps a discussion for another day.

 

[vitanola]

I gather you've never known an alcoholic who stopped drinking.

Yes, I have. A number. However I am currently dealing with one who will on Tuesday be in an Intensive Care bed, strapped down, and pumped full of Benzodiazapenes. If it is anything like the last time he will be seeing Velociraptors in his room. I hope that he makes it without stroking out.

My attitude was at one time, I think, similar to yours . I always could take or leave liquor, and had no trouble stopping completely in an effort to support my friend who was struggling with Demon Rum. I've learned to be a great deal more understanding about the struggles of Alcoholics and other addicts over these past few years while at the same time developing a bit more understanding of Mrs. C. A. Nation.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Yes, I have. A number. However I am currently dealing with one who will on Tuesday be in an Intensive Care bed, strapped down, and pumped full of Benzodiazapenes. If it is anything like the last time he will be seeing Velociraptors in his room. I hope that he makes it without stroking out.

First, my best to you and your loved one. I'm sorry that you both have to go through that, and I wish you both the best.

Secondly, if you've seen an alcoholic stop drinking, you seen one make a choice to not drink.