Now Forming! the Campaign Hat Corps

[Mojave Jack]

Great shots, Dean! Where do you find these incredible images?!

I've not seen any with the company and battalion designation on the hats before. I wonder how common that was. The Marine Corps was only about 3500 strong at the outbreak of the Spanish-American War, so not a lot of need to distinguish between units. I wonder if that was unique to Hotel Co.

It also appears that the EGAs are bright, and not subdued like the WWI period EGAs (and all subsequent versions on field covers), like the ones in the 1908 photo.

 

[deanglen]

Great shots, Dean! Where do you find these incredible images?!

I've not seen any with the company and battalion designation on the hats before. I wonder how common that was. The Marine Corps was only about 3500 strong at the outbreak of the Spanish-American War, so not a lot of need to distinguish between units. I wonder if that was unique to Hotel Co.

It also appears that the EGAs are bright, and not subdued like the WWI period EGAs (and all subsequent versions on field covers), like the ones in the 1908 photo.

OFAS, Copyright issues? I certainly hope not. The sepia toned shots are of Baker company, if I recall correctly. So the USMC of the early 1900s was only brigade strength?

dean

 

[Mojave Jack]

Yes, that would be about right. According to the Commandant's report to the Secretary of the Navy in 1898:

"During the war 57 vessels had marine guards, varying in strength from 80 down to 6 men, making a total of 2,055 enlisted men at sea. There were 623 in the battalion [note: this refers to the the invading force formed for the landing at Guantanamo Bay] and 50 at Key West, making a total of 2,728. Deducting those on the Pacific coast, 275, this left only 71 enlisted men of the regular service available for duty at all eastern posts."

That's a total of 3,071, but I'm not sure if that count includes officers. The figure of 623 for the battalion that landed at GitMo does not, so I'm assuming the rest of the figures do not, either. There were 23 commissioned officers in the GitMo force, so figuring a rough ratio of 1:27 officers to men, that means about another 113 officers or so. By the date of the report, 24 Sep 1898, the strength of the Corps was 3,576:

"There are 1,898 men on duty at the various shore stations and 1,678 on board ships in commission . . . ."

Again, probably the enlisted strength, meaning with officers somewhere around 3,700.

 

[deanglen]

NOT USMC..but still a good campaign hat study...

Found on the bay, don't have the exact year, but circa 1900.

dean

 

[gunnyg]

Lon Chaney as GySgt O'Hara, in Tell It To The Marines 1926.

That campaign cover has seen better days! Great site here:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/220604/

dean

Glad to see ya found my Gunny G Sites-Forums-Blogs!
One point--the Marine Corps referred to it as the "service hat," it was, however called campaign hat in the Army.

Best, and...
Semper Fidelis
Dick Gaines/GyG
~~~~~

 

[Mojave Jack]

Dean, I've been looking back through the campaign/service hat threads, but can't seem to find the info on the ribbon width. I think it was you that posted on it, but was it 5/8" or 3/4"? I think that ribbon you sent me is 5/8" (which BTW, I still need to post a picture of that on my Panama!). What was the proper shade, or was that variable, too? The Dirty Billy hat band looks a bit too wide.

And, Gunny, welcome to the Lounge!

 

[Nashoba]

Glad to see ya found my Gunny G Sites-Forums-Blogs!
One point--the Marine Corps referred to it as the "service hat," it was, however called campaign hat in the Army.

Best, and...
Semper Fidelis
Dick Gaines/GyG
~~~~~

And now it's reserved for the drill field So at what point did the Corps start calling it a Campaign Cover? Or did they ever?
And another welcome to the Lounge Gunny

 

[deanglen]

Dean, I've been looking back through the campaign/service hat threads, but can't seem to find the info on the ribbon width. I think it was you that posted on it, but was it 5/8" or 3/4"? I think that ribbon you sent me is 5/8" (which BTW, I still need to post a picture of that on my Panama!). What was the proper shade, or was that variable, too? The Dirty Billy hat band looks a bit too wide.

And, Gunny, welcome to the Lounge!

The M1889 and M 1883 specs refer to an "8 ligne union band".
Someone here must know how to translate that into inches, and i think they did in one of the previous threads. I think 5/8" approximates it best. As to color, a neutral shade, somewhere between tan and light brown looks close, the specs don't mention the exact color. M1911 hats had wider grosgrain ribbons, I think, and I would guess 3/4" and the ribbon was a more plain center tied thing, about 2 1/2 to 3 inches long within the width of the ribbon,. as you can see on most existing montana peaked Drill Sargeant models. Can't actually find detailed specs on the M1911.

dean

 

[deanglen]

Glad to see ya found my Gunny G Sites-Forums-Blogs!
One point--the Marine Corps referred to it as the "service hat," it was, however called campaign hat in the Army.

Best, and...
Semper Fidelis
Dick Gaines/GyG
~~~~~

Great forum you have there, Gunny! Glad to have you in the Lounge!

dean

 

[Mojave Jack]

The M1889 and M 1883 specs refer to an "8 ligne union band".
Someone here must know how to translate that into inches, and i think they did in one of the previous threads. I think 5/8" approximates it best. As to color, a neutral shade, somewhere between tan and light brown looks close, the specs don't mention the exact color. M1911 hats had wider grosgrain ribbons, I think, and I would guess 3/4" and the ribbon was a more plain center tied thing, about 2 1/2 to 3 inches long within the width of the ribbon,. as you can see on most existing montana peaked Drill Sargeant models. Can't actually find detailed specs on the M1911.

dean

Hmm, very interesting. According to this site, 18 ligne is equal to 5/8". Is it possible then, that the 8 ligne measurement refers to something else? That site I referenced above does mention that there is contention around the definition of a ligne, and that 'Consensus at the time was that a "ligne" measured the inside diameter of a "round wick folded flat."' It goes on to say the ligne today is "inches divided by .0888, or cm divided by 2.2558."

All said and done, though, I think your estimate of 5/8" is good, particularly given the variety in uniforms at that time. Add into that all the private purchase items, and it gets even more varied. I think a 5/8" ribbon in a neutral brown shade would be pretty hard to argue against.

On a related note, I found this site also. It covers a lot of the specs for leggins, too, which I've not seen before.

 

[deanglen]

Hmm, very interesting. According to this site, 18 ligne is equal to 5/8". Is it possible then, that the 8 ligne measurement refers to something else? That site I referenced above does mention that there is contention around the definition of a ligne, and that 'Consensus at the time was that a "ligne" measured the inside diameter of a "round wick folded flat."' It goes on to say the ligne today is "inches divided by .0888, or cm divided by 2.2558."

All said and done, though, I think your estimate of 5/8" is good, particularly given the variety in uniforms at that time. Add into that all the private purchase items, and it gets even more varied. I think a 5/8" ribbon in a neutral brown shade would be pretty hard to argue against.

On a related note, I found this site also. It covers a lot of the specs for leggins, too, which I've not seen before.

Same site I looked at. Strange on that 18 ligne thing. I just don't know for sure, I simply eyeballed the ribbons I've used and It may be wrong. The dirty billy's hat I had was half-inch grosgrain, and a sort of copper color, I'd call it.

dean

 

[deanglen]

WHAT CONFIDENCE LOOKS LIKE IN A HAT!

Army, but still a great shot. A montana peak without concern for symmetry.

dean

 

[Gaige]

What an amazing thread!

Kudos to you all for this discussion, as well as the photos. As a former Marine, I love classic pics of those that came long before me.

(btw, first post here... my thanks to Mr. Hemingway Jones for directing me to this site, as well as his patience on MySpace as I discuss the particulars whilst looking for my first fedora...)

Semper Fi!

 

[deanglen]

Welcome, Gaige! As one who was never Marine material, my campaign hat is off to you! There are a couple of other campaign hat threads, most begun by myself. It's a tiny niche amongst a sea of straws and fedoras. Look forward to your further posts.

dean

 

[Gaige]

Welcome, Gaige! As one who was never Marine material, my campaign hat is off to you! There are a couple of other campaign hat threads, most begun by myself. It's a tiny niche amongst a sea of straws and fedoras. Look forward to your further posts.

dean

Sir,

Regardless of whether or not you were a Marine, your knowledge within this thread is commendable, and in fact taught me a thing or two.

Well done!

Here's a shot of a younger me, Parris Island. Worry not, I subsequently shot Expert... (have to love a sudden rainstorm on qual day and missing Expert by a paltry few points...) Yes, I'm saluting a man in civilian clothing; that man is my great-uncle, retired Major, USAF, who flew in WWII. The man in the white Naval uniform to his left is my brother, who at the time was walking up to surprise me. (Lt. as of the time of this photo)

 

[Nashoba]

What an amazing thread!

Kudos to you all for this discussion, as well as the photos. As a former Marine, I love classic pics of those that came long before me.

Semper Fi!

There's no such thing as a 'Former Marine' darling . Marine is a title you keep for life, you know that. Sharp picture, even if it is PI
Welcome to the Lounge!!

 

[Gaige]

Hey now... what's wrong with PI?

 

[dhermann1]

Fascinating stuff. I would like to see if there is equal information on the evolution of the other 2 main types of cover used by the USMC (as well as the Army), that being the Garrison cap (aka "piss cutter") and the Barracks cover. I'm particularly curious to learn about the distinctive "salty dip" that the grommets of the Barracks cover had for many years, but which was stamped out by the 1970's. The salty dip made Marines really stand out, and I never understood why it was eliminated.
I have some pix of my Dad in Washington DC, when he worked on Leatherneck magazine, with some of his buddies (including Fred Lasswell of "Hashmark" fame) in their greens, and the dip is very evident.
I still have my dad's piss cutter. Wonderful heavy green wool, much heavier than the one I wore from 1966 to 69.

 

[Nashoba]

Hey now... what's wrong with PI?

Nothing in particular...it's just that San Diego is better

 

[Nashoba]

I'm particularly curious to learn about the distinctive "salty dip" that the grommets of the Barracks cover had for many years, but which was stamped out by the 1970's. The salty dip made Marines really stand out, and I never understood why it was eliminated.
I have some pix of my Dad in Washington DC, when he worked on Leatherneck magazine, with some of his buddies (including Fred Lasswell of "Hashmark" fame) in their greens, and the dip is very evident.

Do you think you could share a pic or two of what you're talking about? I'm trying to remember what exactly you're talking about (I knew at some point...It might be on the tip of my tongue... ) I'd like to compare it to my husband's barracks cover to see the difference