Now Forming! the Campaign Hat Corps

[dhermann1]

Next question, not relevant to hats, but what the hey. What ship are they on? It looks like a battleship.

When I was in Boot Camp in Sept 1966 our Drill Instructor told us that if any one of us broke the course record (242 out if 250, as I recall) he'd give us his Smokey Bear hat. I shot 221 on pre-qual day, but on Friday I put 3 clicks LEFT windage instead of 3 clicks RIGHT windage on the Off hand, one of my best positions. Needless to say, I was lucky to hit the target at all. I recovered and shot Marksman (205). At least I qualified. The PMI said "I don't know about you, Hermann". A sentiment oft echoed down the years.
Anyhow, that's my Marine Corps campaign hat story.

 

[RBH]

Sorry guys!!!

Just checking in today.
Yep Dean you hit the nail on the head.
From what I remember of him you would of never have thought it.

 

[up196]

Cartridge belts

up196, any idea what those cartridge belts are? They're definately not the M1910.

Mojave, they look like they're wearing the Model 1903 belts. Here's one for sale on www.oldguns.net

1308 Model 1903 Cartridge Belt (Mills, first type) - Rimless eagle snaps, puckered pockets; rare early version for use with .30-1903 ammunition with round tipped bullets. Later version had lower section of pockets reinforced to withstand use with pointed .30-06 ammunition. This example has the narrow tips on the back for adjustment Nine pockets without any dividers inside. Has been bleached to cream color, almost white. Six frayed spots have old period repair with khaki thread. Marked on back "C8" and illegible old white markings. Overall about good, somewhat dirty. Rare item. (Dorsey Belts p. 5) $95.00

 

[up196]

Well, here goes

Next question, not relevant to hats, but what the hey. What ship are they on? It looks like a battleship.

After a lot of research and analysis, too much off topic to go into here, I agree that it looks like a battleship. In fact, I think it looks like either the USS Delaware (BB28) or the USS North Dakota (BB29) and I'd have to say that the photographer was standing at the starboard rail adjacent to the number 4 turret and was facing the bow of the ship when the picture was taken.

The Library of Congress gives only the following information for this picture: "Central News Photo Service, photographer. | [between 1914 and 1918]."

What was the occasion? Likely press coverage of the military campaign in Mexico.

Both Delaware and North Dakota participated in the Vera Cruz expedition of 1914, which we will see below marked the transition in the Marines to the Montana Peak style.

Now to get back to hats:

Left to right - Capt F.H. Delano, SgtMaj John H. Quick, LtCol W.C. Neville, Col J.A. Lejeune, and Maj S.D. (Smedley) Butler in Vera Cruz, Mexico (MCU Archives)

Taken in 1914, we see that Capt. Delano is wearing a 1911 style campaign hat (P1912 USMC Service hat) while the others have the earlier pattern.

Of the men pictured, LtCol Neville and Maj Butler would each receive the Medal of Honor (Butler's first of two) for their actions at Vera Cruz. SgtMaj Quick had already received the Medal of Honor for his actions at Cuzco Well, Cuba, in 1898.

 

[deanglen]

INCREDIBLE RESEARCH, up196! :eusa_clap Thank you very, very much! Is it reasonable to assume, then, that the Marines and the Army made the transition to the montana peak somewhat gradually after the change to the 1911 regulations? I guess it takes awhile for these things to settle in.
Found this on-line. The marine under the flag looks to be wearing a montana peaked campaign hat:

(Since you've wow'd us with the research you've accomplished so far, the topper would have to be, can you identify Maojave's favorite Devil Dog in the photo, or indeed, any of them. I'll bet you're the kind of guy who loves such a challenge!) Research is welcome in this thread. At least by us. If the bartenders don't agree, they'll let us know.

dean

 

[up196]

Another interesting observation

In looking at that group photo, the first Marine nearest the camera does have the bow of his campaign hat on the wrong side, as you noted earlier. It's almost like he has the hat on backwards, but with the EGA on the back of the hat so it faces forward.

I find that interesting because I read that the original USMC specifications for the P1912 USMC Service hat differed from the Army Model 1911 specs mainly in that there were only three metal vents/grommets, unlike the Army's four. The Marine version had none on the back, and, since the EGA was fastened with a threaded post and nut through the front grommet hole, you couldn't set it up wrong and wear it backwards.

 

[deanglen]

I knew it! But the bolts on the Springfields...well, that was just dumb:eusa_doh: Did a little research on the Veracruz situation and realized how little American Military history I knew nothing about, and I thought I knew a lot. The Wikipedia story was clearly written from the non-USA point of view. Need to study that whole thing a bit more. Urban fighting by Marines in Campaign hats with Springfields. So much to study, so little time. Found these on line, and montana peaks rule!

dean

 

[Mojave Jack]

Just checking in today.
Yep Dean you hit the nail on the head.
From what I remember of him you would of never have thought it.

Holy cow, RBH! Carlos Hathcock was your cousin?! As I'm sure you're aware, but others may not be, the Marine Corps prides itself on the fact that every Marine is first and foremost a Rifleman. Naturally marksmanship is a point of pride (5 time Rifle Expert and 2 time Pistol Expert here, for my own pride's sake, and a rifle range coach, as well), and competition is pretty stiff. Carlos Hathcock is a legend, naturally.

 

[Mojave Jack]

up196, great shot of a couple more Marine Corps legends! It's interesting that although Camp Lejeune is named for the former Commandant, I know very little of his service record. Smedley Butler, of course, is of heroic proportions. Any shots of a young Chesty Puller in your archives? I'd love to see him as a young man. I'm sure he had a jaunty tilt to his campiagn hat!

Kind of like this one (Sorry, I'm doing this through www.helpmehide.com, and I can't use the buttons for inserting images. Anyone know the code off the top of their head?)

http://www.bobtuley.com/chesty_puller_1934_USMC_postal_service_nicaragua300.jpg

Dean, more great pics! To stray from the topic of Marines for a moment, that one Naval officer in the second pic, with the pistol belt and leggins on, looks very Sand Pebbles. Very cool (for a sailor, that is)! Any idea on the dates of those photos?

Another interesting note on the Marine uniforms in the third photo. They have their collars buttoned up, but no ties. I don't recall ever seeing that as part of the uniform regulations. Granted, my experience is much more recent, but generally it is open collar without a tie.

 

[deanglen]

up196, great shot of a couple more Marine Corps legends! It's interesting that although Camp Lejeune is named for the former Commandant, I know very little of his service record. Smedley Butler, of course, is of heroic proportions. Any shots of a young Chesty Puller in your archives? I'd love to see him as a young man. I'm sure he had a jaunty tilt to his campiagn hat!

Kind of like this one (Sorry, I'm doing this through www.helpmehide.com, and I can't use the buttons for inserting images. Anyone know the code off the top of their head?)

http://www.bobtuley.com/chesty_puller_1934_USMC_postal_service_nicaragua300.jpg

Dean, more great pics! To stray from the topic of Marines for a moment, that one Naval officer in the second pic, with the pistol belt and leggins on, looks very Sand Pebbles. Very cool (for a sailor, that is)! Any idea on the dates of those photos?

Another interesting note on the Marine uniforms in the third photo. They have their collars buttoned up, but no ties. I don't recall ever seeing that as part of the uniform regulations. Granted, my experience is much more recent, but generally it is open collar without a tie.

Circa 1914, from the Valverde occupation, same as the shot of the Marines on the deck of the battleship, which makes me wonder why the Marines on the ship have exclusively 'fore and aft' bashes, and the guys in the other photos have exclusively montana peaks, and they were taken the same year.
Must have been a transition that went from the top down. So to speak.

dean

 

[RBH]

Holy cow, RBH! Carlos Hathcock was your cousin?! As I'm sure you're aware, but others may not be, the Marine Corps prides itself on the fact that every Marine is first and foremost a Rifleman. Naturally marksmanship is a point of pride (5 time Rifle Expert and 2 time Pistol Expert here, for my own pride's sake, and a rifle range coach, as well), and competition is pretty stiff. Carlos Hathcock is a legend, naturally.

Yeah Jack, Carlos's father and my father were brothers. Back during the war and when I was a kid, Carlos would always come and stay with us when he was on leave. He and his father did not see eye to eye so he did not see much of him. But what I remember of Carlos was he was quite and easy going , very nice and from what I remember a real gentleman.
My parents divorced in the late 70's and after that I did not see much of that side of the family, Carlos was dealing with his MS and the last time I saw him was around the mid 70's at Christmas, that was when I first learned he had something wrong with him.

 

[up196]

Why Montana peaks

Circa 1914, from the Valverde occupation, same as the shot of the Marines on the deck of the battleship, which makes me wonder why the Marines on the ship have exclusively 'fore and aft' bashes, and the guys in the other photos have exclusively montana peaks, and they were taken the same year.
Must have been a transition that went from the top down. So to speak.

dean

For the first two pictures the reason is simple. They are ARMY officers. Brigadier General Frederick Funston and his staff with Admiral Fletcher. Note there are no emblems on the front of the hats.

I don't know about the third. Maybe everybody got new hats for the photo op. Heck, maybe the reason for the photo is because everybody got their new hats.

 

[deanglen]

For the first two pictures the reason is simple. They are ARMY officers. Brigadier General Frederick Funston and his staff with Admiral Fletcher. Note there are no emblems on the front of the hats.

I don't know about the third. Maybe everybody got new hats for the photo op. Heck, maybe the reason for the photo is because everybody got their new hats.

Once again, my powers of observation fail.:eusa_doh: I've got to learn to be a little more careful with the photo analysis. Funston, eh? Interesting guy, from what I've read.

dean

 

[Harp]

I don't know about the third. Maybe everybody got new hats for the photo op. Heck, maybe the reason for the photo is because everybody got their new hats.

The third photo may be of John Twiggs Myers(USMC) and staff???

(Great Pix)

 

[Harp]

Carlos was dealing with his MS and the last time I saw him was around the mid 70's at Christmas, that was when I first learned he had something wrong with him.

I have great admiration for the Marine Corps, but the Corps should have retired Hathcock as an E-9.

 

[DELTA0321]

Carlos

I was able to meet & talk with Carlos several times while teaching at ARS. He was invited at least twice as a guest speaker at graduation. I also was honored to have him presenting awards at my 1st Division Match (Lejeune 1990). I have pictures of him w/ several of my teammates; of course I've lost the one w/ me.

A true hero and a fine man.
s/f

 

[Harp]

I never met Hathcock but knew his reputation. Some time after the
fall of Saigon, while stationed in Athens, Greece I happened to be
introduced over lunch to a former NVA officer who spoke rather highly
of him.

 

[RBH]

Just a note of thanks for the kind words for Carlos.

 

[deanglen]

Latest Internest Image Foraging Expedition Results

Phillipines, circa 1900-1901. USMC, of course!

dean

 

[deanglen]

Panama, 1908

Found this today:

dean