Morning dress

[Charlie Huang]

TBH, I am more concerned about what he is wearing than what is on his face...

 

[Feraud]

Agreed. We show our best side when discussing what people are wearing instead of the unknowable why people wear what they do.

 

[Salieri]

I rather liked Clegg's matching 3-piece. Bercow's, which looked like almost midnight blue depending on what photos you look at, not so much but I still like the idea. Incredibly, I thought Guy Ritchie looked pretty good, although like everybody his trousers were a little on the long side.

Charlie, what did you make of Rowan Atkinson's hat? I couldn't really tell from the pictures whether it was silk or polished melusine...

 

[Charlie Huang]

You're going to have to post a pic as I haven't noticed it.

TBH, I didn't like Bercow's rig much. Even after his 'morning dress for the State Opening' ceremonial gaff, he could at least have put a better one together...

Clegg pulled it off quite well I thought.

 

[Salieri]

You're going to have to post a pic as I haven't noticed it.

TBH, I didn't like Bercow's rig much. Even after his 'morning dress for the State Opening' ceremonial gaff, he could at least have put a better one together...

Clegg pulled it off quite well I thought.

Here it is:

I was under the impression that his morning dress at the state opening was a conscious change of protocol rather than a gaffe. I'm sure I read in the papers that it was going to happen before it happened.

 

[Charlie Huang]

I think it might be fur but it is too far away to see. I'm going by the brim and the crown edge which doesn't seem sharp enough for a silk...

Well, Bercow is a man of gaffes whether he intends them or not...

 

[Salieri]

Yes, I thought the crown looked a little rounded too. Incidentally, I don't know what kind of camera anomaly has caused it but it looks like he's carrying a pair of incandescent gloves.

 

[Qirrel]

In any case he didn't polish his hat like he ought to have done.

 

[Tomasso]

The DoW once had a dark brown morning suit made up; it was purchased from his estate by Ciro Paone of Kiton.

 

[Charlie Huang]

Yes, I thought the crown looked a little rounded too. Incidentally, I don't know what kind of camera anomaly has caused it but it looks like he's carrying a pair of incandescent gloves.

His morning dress looks far better than many I have seen on the day. Well balanced though I would have worn a b+w houndstooth tie for more contrast and to spice it up a bit. And a buttonhole which is essential in adding more colour.

 

[Charlie Huang]

Oh, some of you might like to know that I am having a sort of battle of wills with the creator of the Cutter & Tailor forum, Sator. He use to be a defender of traditional styles but now seems to have changed sides and be completely against it. Two threads to read:

A locked one with the main debate in the second half: http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1882

Current one on morning dress at the wedding: http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2305

Basically, he's calling me and some others (indirectly) a costume dressy-upper and I find it rather insulting to say the least as he fails to realise that some people actually want to wear this stuff not to conform to a certain group but to express their individuality like any one on the street but no, it must be modern and hip to be justifiably worn today. There is indeed a fine line between what is costume and what isn't but for him the line is placed above everything that is traditional in favour of bland and humdrum changing of the fashion world and 'trends' that are more suitable for designers and the 'costs the earth, wear once, throw away after' ideology that much of us are figthing against in the first place. Basically he is against the vintage movement as I see it even though the vintage movement is, as I see it, essential in getting people to understand good clothes and styles. Plus, he, I feel, sucks the living daylights out of wearing clothes for fun and enjoyment and wants to limit formal wear to lounge suits and nothing else that that existed before he was born.

 

[Lokar]

The thing is, the Cutter & Tailor is primarily for tailors and for sustaining the craft. I'd love it if all tailors could start making morning dress, vintage-style suits with heavy weight wools, etc., but that's not what fashion dictates and so not what people want. Yes, there are some people who would be happy with it, but not enough to keep most tailors in business. Sator's insistence on modern tailoring is purely for that reason.

I do agree that he is sometimes quite aggressive about his views, and I'm not saying I always agree with him and that you're wrong (I definitely don't always agree with him), but the reason for the forum is to try to keep the craft alive and just making traditional clothing won't do it. We have the Fedora Lounge to discuss these sorts of things, C&T is for modern fashionable suits that are still well cut, tailored suits - unlike actual fashion, which usually looks awful.

 

[Charlie Huang]

But surely there should be allowed a range of discussion from formal to informal and not restricted to modern stuff? And one needs to know about the past cuts so that people undertsand how things have evolved over time and why. Plus, traditional tailoring, although not as prominent as the modern suits, is still in demand and if someone were to come to ask for a morning coat or whatnot then you need the knowledge to do so. Denying knowledge, however in the minority, I find to be against the craft itself. All the tailors I know still make the odd morning coat. Its still as relevant as ever (re: the Royal Wedding). I just do not like the Cultural Revolution style purge of old styles, old ideas, old customs, old habits based on the fact that they are just old without any real examination as to why they are unviable in the first place. If they go down this route then they might as well stifle everything to do with formal wear including black tie and just focus on the lounge suit. Very soon that will have been considered as old fashioned (the process has already started) then they will have little else to talk about but dressmaking whilst the whole world still wears morning dress, lounge suits and other things.

I'm not saying that we should only talk about traditional tailoring but at least allow it to be talked about.

 

[Visconde]

I think this Mr. Sator shouldn't be so scared of history and try to look for the origins of the word "forum". It isn't the person that build it whom dictates the discussion, nor is it the person that paid for it, it is the people whom have the final word in choosing the topic of discussion.

With kind regards

Visconde

 

[dhermann1]

But surely there should be allowed a range of discussion from formal to informal and not restricted to modern stuff? And one needs to know about the past cuts so that people undertsand how things have evolved over time and why. Plus, traditional tailoring, although not as prominent as the modern suits, is still in demand and if someone were to come to ask for a morning coat or whatnot then you need the knowledge to do so. Denying knowledge, however in the minority, I find to be against the craft itself. All the tailors I know still make the odd morning coat. Its still as relevant as ever (re: the Royal Wedding). I just do not like the Cultural Revolution style purge of old styles, old ideas, old customs, old habits based on the fact that they are just old without any real examination as to why they are unviable in the first place. If they go down this route then they might as well stifle everything to do with formal wear including black tie and just focus on the lounge suit. Very soon that will have been considered as old fashioned (the process has already started) then they will have little else to talk about but dressmaking whilst the whole world still wears morning dress, lounge suits and other things.

I'm not saying that we should only talk about traditional tailoring but at least allow it to be talked about.

Well said. :eusa_clap

 

[John in Covina]

I just do not like the Cultural Revolution style purge of old styles, old ideas, old customs, old habits based on the fact that they are just old without any real examination as to why they are unviable in the first place. If they go down this route then they might as well stifle everything to do with formal wear including black tie and just focus on the lounge suit. Very soon that will have been considered as old fashioned (the process has already started) then they will have little else to talk about but dressmaking whilst the whole world still wears morning dress, lounge suits and other things.

I'm not saying that we should only talk about traditional tailoring but at least allow it to be talked about.

The nature of many consumer items has the central theme of "New and Improved" and the public tends to accept that as a tenant for the focus of buying. Producers will look at materials and production techniques as parameter for formulating what they wish to produce. The public has limited memory and will look down on and discard what they see as old, simply because it is old. The belief system is built on what ever is new is better.

In an profession / industry such as tailors they shape the market by what they offer and push you t buy what they want to make. In a seminar several years ago at the Queen Mary during the magazine launch, two of our then leading members were comparing notes about trying to get not the ultra high end tailors but some of the better ones to make suits in earlier styles. They found that many tailors would simply make what they wanted to make and that certain early construction techniques were not followed. Some did not know how to do the older type suits and some simply did not want to do what they were not used to doing.

This is why so much knowledge and ability is lost as the past is discarded. It is a shame because the number of people that can produce a suit like a 1930's -40's -50's suit or even formal wear has shrunk because the details of how and why things were done back then are no longer passed down.

What is new and improved often turns out to be not an improvement for the user but an improvement for the maker. (Windows Vista- the testing was done on the public and it was deeply flawed.) Perception is reality in marketing this stuff to the vast majority of the consumers.

At the same time however there are certain lengths of life for most things. We don't wear the fashions of the 1860's or before as anything but a costume. The hard part is when is at the point where what was convention not too long ago is in the process of being discarded and one doesn't want to discard it yet.

The fashion industry also likes to mothball things so it can then reintroduce them as new later on.

 

[Charlie Huang]

Tynwald 2003.

The DoE's ensemble here is just breathtakingly good. Look at how the waistcoat and bodycoat 'agrees' with each other and create a good balance.

 

[Edward]

You've seen my comments when you posted that on Facebook: it is indeed an outstandingly well fitted outfit, beautifully cut. From the Row, no doubt. I think it would actually be even more stunning without the decorations; part of the true beauty of well cut morning dress, imo, is in its relative simplicity. This is why Phillip's looks stunning, and the average 'soccer player at a wedding' abysmal!

 

[Tomasso]

...the creator of the Cutter & Tailor forum, Sator. He use to be a defender of traditional styles but now seems to have changed sides and be completely against it.

:eeek: I'm shocked. Sator, say it ain't so.......

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Well, Sator is a tailoring enthusiast who started to deal with serious clothing only a few years ago. It would seem that he has relatively little to no background experience with formal clothes. I remember one of his older posts, from a few years ago, on AAAC about the idea of wearing a dinner jacket at the Opera, something he obviously had never done before.
It means that he probably wore a dinner jacket to somewhere for the first time in his 30s or so and if he does own a morning coat (he may as he is a tailor and could have made one) probably never wore it.
All this means that he had to get his experience and understanding of clothes from somewhere and this was books for him. This brings out his somewhat dogmatic views on some subjects (Stresemanns/Director jackets) and probably brought out his recent conversion to “lounge suit only”.
With nobody or almost nobody around him wearing anything more formal than a lounge suit (he lives in Australia after all) he more or less deleted from the realm of possible everything else.
This, of course, is a very narrow view of things but experience is what shapes us all.

My experience is quite different and therefore I am rather happy to thank Sator for all the beautiful pictures and patterns he posted and for some of his older messages, but I am also quite happy to disagree completely with him on the subject of formal clothes.
Yours,

Phileas Fogg

P.S. I can agree with Sator's point that as he is paying for his forum he should be entitled to keep it serious and check its contents, but I do not agree with him about dress breeches being costume on par with some of the things in the pictures he posted.

P.P.S. Mr Huang you and your friends did very well on the day of the Royal Wedding.