Modern Top Hats and restored originals

[Picard1138]

Gentlemen,

I have been scouring the internet and some of the messages here, but I have yet to find answer on the "best" modern top hat, and/or restored originals.

To start off, I am getting married in about one year from today, and I wear about 7 3/8 (60-61cm, long oval) hat. I will either be in tails or a morning cutaway, depending on the time of the service of course, in either case I need a real top hat. I would like the look of a real topper as seen on gentlemen in the 1900s-1930s. I have been reading up and know the differences between the hats, tall crown vs. riding crown, and materials. (My groomsmen will most likely be wearing bowlers or homburgs, incidentally, and I have an excellent homburg from Selentino - purchased at JJ's in NYC - which has served me well for several years.)

Beaver toppers, with a silk look seems to be the only commonly available hat, (best seen from Selentino and Lock&Co, and one from Stetson at some point it seems). I have heard of two companies in the Netherlands (I believe) making new silk top hats, but their websites are old and I fear they may be out of business.

As for original: Restored original silk toppers in my size run into the thousands on some of the more posh European websites, however I am willing to take a gamble on an original and have it restored if I get one in time.

Any ideas on other sources or selections?

Thank you all for your help,

-Max

 

[milliedog]

Here is one , currently in stock.

http://www.australiangear.com.au/mens/akubra-top-hat-black-in-stock-now.html

 

[fedoracentric]

Well, first of all get it out of your head that you will easily and cheaply be able to find a new top hat maker that will be able to make a proper silk (they weren't beaver, they were silk) top hat like they used to make back in the day.

Secondly, I doubt you'll find anyone that can "restore" an old one, either. Not economically, anyway.

There are a few, VERY few that make them like they used to but there are a few. Most just make them of felt and they don't at all have the sharp edges and slick characteristics of the old silk ones. There is one called silktophats.eu, but they charge $600 and up for them. Lock & Co still deals in them, too. For a high price.

It's actually cheaper to find an old one on Ebay.

The top hats made today don't really resemble the old, flat topped, silk toppers as far as I am concerned.

 

[mayserwegener]

I am not aware of anywhere in the US that can restore an old Silk Topper. Once you get over 58cm they become very rare so very expensive. German eBay (search Zylinderhut) tends have a good number of Silk Toppers for auction / sale.

 

[jamespowers]

Gentlemen,

I have been scouring the internet and some of the messages here, but I have yet to find answer on the "best" modern top hat, and/or restored originals.

To start off, I am getting married in about one year from today, and I wear about 7 3/8 (60-61cm, long oval) hat. I will either be in tails or a morning cutaway, depending on the time of the service of course, in either case I need a real top hat. I would like the look of a real topper as seen on gentlemen in the 1900s-1930s. I have been reading up and know the differences between the hats, tall crown vs. riding crown, and materials. (My groomsmen will most likely be wearing bowlers or homburgs, incidentally, and I have an excellent homburg from Selentino - purchased at JJ's in NYC - which has served me well for several years.)

Beaver toppers, with a silk look seems to be the only commonly available hat, (best seen from Selentino and Lock&Co, and one from Stetson at some point it seems). I have heard of two companies in the Netherlands (I believe) making new silk top hats, but their websites are old and I fear they may be out of business.

As for original: Restored original silk toppers in my size run into the thousands on some of the more posh European websites, however I am willing to take a gamble on an original and have it restored if I get one in time.

Any ideas on other sources or selections?

Thank you all for your help,

-Max

Gee, I saw one for sale in Sebastopol, CA a few weeks ago for about $45 but it needed a new ribbon. Too bad I didn't know. I was trying to get a friend of mine to buy it. It was the collapsible kind.

 

[mayserwegener]

The collapsible ones are plentiful so much better chance to find a large size one at a good price. There are many of them on German eBay just search Zylinder Klapphut, Chapeau Claque.

 

[besdor]

Selentino (Tonack) carries a fur felt top hat for the US market. I believe there is only one manufacturer left here in the USA who makes a non collapsible satin top hat. They are located on Long Island NY. -the old Kreiger Top Hat company. We stock them on special orders .

 

[Picard1138]

Here is one , currently in stock.

http://www.australiangear.com.au/mens/akubra-top-hat-black-in-stock-now.html

Thank you for the link, the Akruba looks like a well crafted hat, however a dress topper should have a sheen, made in plush silk or beaver. "Flat" black felt hats are supposedly reserved for the grieving, or costumes unfortunately.

 

[Picard1138]

Well, first of all get it out of your head that you will easily and cheaply be able to find a new top hat maker that will be able to make a proper silk (they weren't beaver, they were silk) top hat like they used to make back in the day.

Secondly, I doubt you'll find anyone that can "restore" an old one, either. Not economically, anyway.

There are a few, VERY few that make them like they used to but there are a few. Most just make them of felt and they don't at all have the sharp edges and slick characteristics of the old silk ones. There is one called silktophats.eu, but they charge $600 and up for them. Lock & Co still deals in them, too. For a high price.

It's actually cheaper to find an old one on Ebay.

The top hats made today don't really resemble the old, flat topped, silk toppers as far as I am concerned.

Indeed, it is a challenge, I fully expect to pay a pretty penny for the hat. There are some restorers in the UK that I have found, but sight unseen I would never know what I'm getting in to through an ebay purchase, as always. Ideally I would like a restored vintage silk topper, but my backup is a new silk-finish beaver top hat which are available.

Incidentally, it seems that toppers were originally made with beaver fur, then when beaver almost became extinct they switched to plush silk and it stuck around for the next 100 years. Now that plush silk is no longer available, they are being made of fine beaver fur again (JFK's top hat was a Dobbs beaver fur, for instance). Agreed, they do not look as sharp as their 1850s-1930s silk equivalents, but I'll take it over flat black wool or fur felt any day.

I'll keep my eyes out on eBay and in person for originals.

Does anyone have any experience with a Selentino or other modern beaver fur topper?

Thanks again, gents.

-Max

 

[Picard1138]

Selentino (Tonack) carries a fur felt top hat for the US market. I believe there is only one manufacturer left here in the USA who makes a non collapsible satin top hat. They are located on Long Island NY. -the old Kreiger Top Hat company. We stock them on special orders .

Besdor, thank you for the excellent recommendation. I found their website and put a call in with them, they seem very impressive. (website here: http://www.tophats.com/ ). I am not currently looking for a collapsible "opera" topper, as I may be having my wedding during the afternoon, however I would like to purchase one of these for the occasional white tie event I attend every few years. Just found: They also do restorations of silk toppers!

Thanks again!

-Max

 

[Brad Bowers]

(JFK's top hat was a Dobbs beaver fur, for instance).

Pardon my intrusion into the conversation, but I need to set the record straight. JFK's Inaugural hat was a Cavanagh silk top hat, made by William Schnautz, an employee in the Cavanagh division of Hat Corporation of America. The day before the inauguration, Schnautz, along with Cavanagh fitter John Garside, took five different size 7 1/2 Cavanagh silk hats to Kennnedy's suite at the Hotel Carlyle, each with a different oval. They were pleasantly surprised that Kennedy had a perfect oval head, and no adjustments were needed to the silk hat he chose.

We now return you to your regular programming!

Brad

 

[mayserwegener]

Incidentally, it seems that toppers were originally made with beaver fur, then when beaver almost became extinct they switched to plush silk and it stuck around for the next 100 years. Now that plush silk is no longer available, they are being made of fine beaver fur again (JFK's top hat was a Dobbs beaver fur, for instance). Agreed, they do not look as sharp as their 1850s-1930s silk equivalents, but I'll take it over flat black wool or fur felt any day.


Thanks again, gents.

-Max

The early 19th Century Beaver Top Hats were not made like most (some of the English / Euro makers use Fur Melusine in a some what similar way to silk but expensive) today (most today are stiffer soft fur felts that look some what like Top Hats). The process of construction was similar to the Silk Top Hat that came later. The fur was applied in sheets. When I have time I will post the process described in "Die Hutmacherkunst: ein Handbuch für den Klein- und Grossbetrieb By Carl Bortfeldt 1902". By the way there are some examples (Alan has one) of old Nutria Toppers on the FL which look very much like Silk Toppers.

Alan's 1915 Crofut & Knapp Nutria Top Hat

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?36577-Toppers-Unite&p=1340271&viewfull=1#post1340271

 

[GamaH]

Optimo?

 

[mayserwegener]

They make one like I described above (a stiffer soft felt that looks some what like a Top Hat).

 

[Picard1138]

Pardon my intrusion into the conversation, but I need to set the record straight. JFK's Inaugural hat was a Cavanagh silk top hat, made by William Schnautz, an employee in the Cavanagh division of Hat Corporation of America. The day before the inauguration, Schnautz, along with Cavanagh fitter John Garside, took five different size 7 1/2 Cavanagh silk hats to Kennnedy's suite at the Hotel Carlyle, each with a different oval. They were pleasantly surprised that Kennedy had a perfect oval head, and no adjustments were needed to the silk hat he chose.

We now return you to your regular programming!

Brad

Brad, I stand corrected, mea culpa. I saw a photo of a Dobbs topper at the JFK Library, and believed it to be his original. Perhaps he had a few, or they may just have mislabled it? In any case, Jack and I share the exact same size, so if you find his original maybe I could borrow it for my wedding?

Photo seen here: http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/6YljblQ9MEO8P6ST3iGaOQ.aspx

-Max

 

[Picard1138]

The early 19th Century Beaver Top Hats were not made like most (some of the English / Euro makers use Fur Melusine in a some what similar way to silk but expensive) today (most today are stiffer soft fur felts that look some what like Top Hats). The process of construction was similar to the Silk Top Hat that came later. The fur was applied in sheets.

I just purchased a fur melusine topper made by Christys' of London as my "backup," I'm still trying to find a silk original in my size (and not over $1,000). I will post photos here of the Christys, which I have read is an excellent hat, well received even at the Royal Ascot.

-Max

 

[Brad Bowers]

Brad, I stand corrected, mea culpa. I saw a photo of a Dobbs topper at the JFK Library, and believed it to be his original. Perhaps he had a few, or they may just have mislabled it? In any case, Jack and I share the exact same size, so if you find his original maybe I could borrow it for my wedding?

Photo seen here: http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/6YljblQ9MEO8P6ST3iGaOQ.aspx

-Max

No problem, happy to help. I can't explain the Dobbs, but it was obviously purchased at a retail store, going by the secondary information. It may have been an earlier hat, or it may have been a gift hat. Wish I knew where the Cavanagh is now!

The Inaugural hat was ordered directly for JFK from the Cavanagh Park Avenue store. William Schnautz, George Cuneo, and Mary Wargo were all that were left of Hat Corporation's silk hat department in the early 1960s. A good year for silk hats at that time was 40 dozen a year. They also made the Cavanagh silk hats for both RFK and LBJ for Kennedy's inauguration. There was a bit of a kerfuffle in early December 1960 when the Danbury hatters announced they were going to make the inaugural silk hats. Then Stetson said they were getting in on the action, but Cavanagh won the order. No surprise, since they were the highest end hatter of that time.

Brad

 

[TheDane]

Brad: You keep amazing me with your enormous knowledge and readyness to share it. I bet you know their dog's names too - and their shoe sizes

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

Picard, congrats on your upcoming wedding. I do hope that you find that special hat that you are looking for to make your special day complete. I don't have any advice to offer as I know very little about hats for men, but I do share the pain of those men who feel vintage tends to be better as I have not come across a milliner who can create a hat the way that I want, but then again I haven't really been looking. The only time someone has come close was when they used vintage fabrics so I purchased the hat. My collection is 100% vintage, plus it's good to know that I have the last surviving hat of its kind so no other woman will be walking around with my own unique cloches!

 

[dhermann1]

Here's a topper I got from a fellow Lounger about 4 years ago. Finally took in to Worth and Worth a few weeks ago. I think the results are fabulous. They refelted it, where the edge had worn, replaced the ribbon and the outer edge binding, and put in a new sweatband. To my surprise Orlando, the proprietor there, told me it dates from the 1880s! Anyhow, I love it, and what's more IT FITS!