Merged Hatter Thread

[MK]

.

There's no finer bunch of people than the QM Martini Crowd.

From a man who knows.

Some of my most enjoyable moments have been with the QM Martini Crowd.

 

[Russ]

It is my belief that all this ruckus is not due to my policy....but in the way I communicated it. My PMs to a few companies were done at 2AM. They were very brief, which I now see were read as....if not rude at least were taken as I didn't value these members. I regret not waiting until the next day and being more eloquent in my words. I have to take responsibility for that.

The policy stands, but I appologize for the way I communicated to those members. It is my desire that all members here be treated with respect. It wasn't that I didn't respect them...but they perceived it as such. Respect for fellow members is one of the cornerstones to the Fedora Lounge and has been the standard by which most things are measured here.

I applaud this apology. It cut to the very heart of the issue (if I perceived it correctly from my seat in the back row) and went a long way in clearing up some misconceptions about the attitude of the management (misconceptions which were held by me if not others). I don't think the link policy itself was ever the central issue.

After a sincere apology has been issued, what more can be done? Pound of flesh? Nah... I have nothing more to say about the issue.

I hope those who have felt alienated by the PMs will feel the balance has been restored.

 

[John in Covina]

Amongst Friends!

With heartfelt thanks to all of you, that took the time to write and make your feelings known. We are concerned for others, for the group and for the rather wonderful flow of great information we get here. We prize the hard won bits of information that the knowledgeable have earned thru their hard work. We know that it is a struggle sometimes to make a forum such as this simply work! We know that as the forum grows as time goes on, things will change and that there must be response to the changing responsibilities or things will change not for the better but for the worse.

When ever a situation like this comes up, it can so often be the result of a lack of communication or communication that was lacking, either in timing or content or correct sentiment. Miscommunication is the enemy of all organizations, regrettable as it can be.
I have seen ugly situations come up at school, work, home and church because miscommunication, from the giving and as well as the receiving end. (In the past year, I have heard more things about what someone has said, when they didn’t say anything like that at all, because of what the person receiving the communication, thought was said, wanted to hear, didn’t want to hear.) So at best it is a tricky thing to convey what we mean and hear what was actually said. Here in the forum, many times, a quick quip with great wit is received like a branding iron on the other end. Hurt feelings happen, justified or not, and until the hurt feelings go away, all communication becomes even more difficult. Now I hope THAT hasn’t offended anyone.

I value the opinion of many here, and some more than others which is natural. I give credence to the words of those I find wise and I honor those that share.

Solutions, there are some that are better than others and in the reality of what it takes to make this go from both ends we know that there is investment in time, talent, energy and even money. Yes even not for profit organizations live in the reality that things cost money and the best intentions, efforts of sweat equity, can not offset writing a check to pay the bills. Many organizations have to reach out to get things going and keep things going. My favorite PBS station has pledge drives, and seeks donors. Money comes from individuals and corporations. Giving comes at many levels and no donation is turned down. There are rewards for such donations and there are levels of reward that come from the level of giving. My recommendation is to look at a series of levels or packages that would allow certain levels of advertisement in the proper place.

If you do get support from those in business, create a directory of sponsors. Perhaps have the link from there. You may then have those corporate sponsors noted with their posts in an unobtrusive manner and allow their support to be recognized in a clear manner too.

I can’t say that it would definitely work but it is a model that can be followed and understood, I figure many have seen the PBS method.

I hope that we can be reasonable and come to a working agreement soon.

With best wishes to all,

 

[rcinlv]

I guess I am just more than a little confused

Forgive me, or perhaps better yet, indulge me. But I must admit that I am a little bit confused. I am much more of a lurker, new"ish" to this forum. This has been a tremendous resource for me, as I have sought out valuable and valued information regarding hats. Much of what goes on is little more than a fashion show, and for that reason I have always been reluctant to participate. I'm really not all that interested in "showing off" my latest purchase on ebay (the site that seems universally hated, but absolutely supported by the members), or even from the forum Vendors. I am interested in the history, the various style options, and the craft. I don't intend to make hats- heck, I have a hard enough time just getting through the day. But the vendors, from MT Hatter, to Besdor, to Aaron Hats, to Art, through Fedora, seem to offer some of the best information- all due respect to Deckard, AndyKev, MK, Marc Chevallier, Stridor... and all of those I left out that serve as 'tenders and such. Their information has assisted me in finding quality headgear, understanding what is out there, both new and vintage, and make reasoned decisions regarding what I wish to purchase.

Every day there appears a new thread regarding some new purchase from a hatmaker who may or may not be an advertiser on this forum. The threads themselves are de facto adverts for the makers. Geez, there's even a sticky on this forum that serves as a missive for a particular hatmaker. And yet we give great love and respect to those who post those threads, and those who are lauded in those threads. I guess I fundamentally don't understand what the difference is between an entire thread devoted to my latest purchase from Art Fawcett or Optimo and them giving me valuable information in a post that "oh, by the way" contains a link to their website. If it is an out-and-out advert, it should be easy enough to police (I recall a post by a "new in town" for a hat for sale on ebay not a month ago that I myself suggested belonged in the classifieds).

Perhaps I should take the advice of the Boss- don't write these things after bedtime. But I sure hate to see quality people leave this place over something that seems, on the surface, silly. I prefer this forum to any other that discusses hats, because it is not dedicated to a single style, because it is nearly always civil, and because it just flat has the best factual content. It is, in the end, more than just a fashion show, and the vendors, given the proviso that their content isn't aimed at ginning up business, should be a part of the discourse. Whether they advertise here- or in the mag- or not.

There, I said it. Go ahead- pile on.

RC

 

[Johnnysan]

There, I said it. Go ahead- pile on.

Well stated. :eusa_clap

 

[Pilgrim]

Friends, I keep in mind that this is not a publicly-owned forum. It is privately owned by MK. As such, we are guests on his property and bound by courtesy and practicality to abide by the rules he sets, which are IMO quite reasonable.

As I understand it, there is no problem with vendors participating in the Lounge as long as they observe standards of decorum determined by MK. I don't have any problem with that, and most of the vendors here don't have a problem with it either. I am sorry if Fedora feels he prefers to leave, but that would be his decision, not MK's.

I belong to other fora which are much, much more restrictive - and in which expression of opinions contrary those held by the forum owner can result in posts or entire threads being arbitrarily deleted without notice or apology. MK is a much more genial and diplomatic host. :eusa_clap

And BTW - I for one would welcome a link in the grey bar above the thread labeled "Donate to the Lounge", accessing a Paypal link. It wouldn't have to be something members are exhorted to use, but there's nothing wrong with it being present.

Those are my feelings on both matters.

 

[Samsa]

Friends, I keep in mind that this is not a publicly-owned forum. It is privately owned by MK. As such, we are guests on his property and bound by courtesy and practicality to abide by the rules he sets, which are IMO quite reasonable.

A forum is by definition a place where different views and ideas are shared by members. I see no problem with people voicing disagreement, so long as it is done respectfully, and with an awareness that at the end of the day MK's opinion is the one that controls. MK is responsible for creating this site, and his generosity has funded it, but it remains true that the members (including vendors) are what has made this such a great place. This thread has had so many posts, I think, simply because some of these members are in fact leaving the Lounge, thus making it that much poorer.

I also have yet to see anyone outright refuse to obey the new rules - the rules have simply been questioned. If the thread had instead been started by vendors who refused to remove links from their signature line, I don't think you would see so many members posting to support them.

At any rate, I shall stop posting on this thread; it seems that all that can be said on topic already has been. I'd like to get back to reading about hats!

 

["Doc" Devereux]

A related question

I asked this over in the relevant thread, but since the question remains unanswered I seek clarification here.

Many of us have mentioned our web sites in our signatures, and even more in the [URL="http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=13609]'What is your website?'[/URL] thread. Many of these are sites we run to promote ourselves professionally, or to publicise events with which we are involved. Are these links to be removed also?

Furthermore, what of threads in the 'Events' section that specifically promote dances, shows and the like? Surely this is advertising far more blatent than a link in ones signature; is this now forbidden under the same rule?

 

[scotrace]

Doc, your questions are good ones and deserve answers. As soon as the details are worked out you'll have them.

 

[Pilgrim]

I'm grinning very broadly as I write this...

Gee whiz, my website is a district site for my alumni association. I wonder where that falls??

(As if I really care - it's MK's baseball and I want to play.)

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

 

["Doc" Devereux]

Whereas mine is a device to publicise my work and encourage people to buy my books or engage my services. Since both of those directly contribute to my supply of White Ladies and AvGas, I thought it was worth asking.

Doc, your questions are good ones and deserve answers. As soon as the details are worked out you'll have them.

Thank you. I look forward to hearing the decision.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I for one would welcome a link in the grey bar above the thread labeled "Donate to the Lounge", accessing a Paypal link. It wouldn't have to be something members are exhorted to use, but there's nothing wrong with it being present.

I would welcome it as well. It would be voluntary and anonymous. No pressure; just an option for those of us who would really like to give back in this way.


.

 

[Fedora]

Why should they if everyone can come here and promote their company for free? Why should I let companies sell their products and not contribute?

MK, I started making and selling hats because I was tired of paying 4 to 5 bills for a rabbit fedora. I sourced the better stuff, pure beaver, and make and sell them, with discounts being offered to TFL and COW sites. My price for a pure beaver hat is generally half of what other hatters charge. I originally did this as a hobby, and a favor to my fellow members at COW. If I were pricing my hats at the market rate, I would have no qualms about paying for advertising. I am not in the same category as most other vendors. Period. And I don't want to be. To pay advertising means I have to pass this on. Since I never saw what I am doing as a business in the general sense of the word, with an eye on profit margins, this move on your part got my goat.

I am already offering a favor if you want to own a pure beaver hat for 225.00. To have you stab me with the sterile pm was an insult. We go back to the days of Indyfan you and me. I am not a newbie. I expected a bit more respect from you. That you never answered Marc's offer to provide a free hat to your Summit was an insult to him as well. I doubt he will offer again.


Look, making money from making hats never was my primary goal. I love hats, and I love well made hats. I just got tired of paying big bucks for rabbit felt and blends. I guess it makes no difference to you that my prices was created for COW and then this forum, A perk to the members. I try to be a good guy and pass on a huge bargain, and this is what I get. No thanks. You want one of my hats and you are member here? The new price is 450 bucks for the pure beaver. COW members will still get the 225.00 rate. I don't have to be a nice guy. Now, delete my membership please. Fedora

 

[MK]

.

MK, I started making and selling hats because I was tired of paying 4 to 5 bills for a rabbit fedora. I sourced the better stuff, pure beaver, and make and sell them, with discounts being offered to TFL and COW sites. My price for a pure beaver hat is generally half of what other hatters charge. I originally did this as a hobby, and a favor to my fellow members at COW. If I were pricing my hats at the market rate, I would have no qualms about paying for advertising. I am not in the same category as most other vendors. Period. And I don't want to be. To pay advertising means I have to pass this on. Since I never saw what I am doing as a business in the general sense of the word, with an eye on profit margins, this move on your part got my goat.

I am already offering a favor if you want to own a pure beaver hat for 225.00. To have you stab me with the sterile pm was an insult. We go back to the days of Indyfan you and me. I am not a newbie. I expected a bit more respect from you. That you never answered Marc's offer to provide a free hat to your Summit was an insult to him as well. I doubt he will offer again.

If you read above, I apologized for the perceived tone of my very quick PM coming off as rude. As for Marc, that is not correct. I did respond to him and he agreed to donate a hat. He later changed his mind because it was not a Indy only event.

Look, making money from making hats never was my primary goal. I love hats, and I love well made hats. I just got tired of paying big bucks for rabbit felt and blends. I guess it makes no difference to you that my prices was created for COW and then this forum, A perk to the members. I try to be a good guy and pass on a huge bargain, and this is what I get. No thanks. Fedora

I have provided a forum for people to share their love of hats and the golden era here....for free. Hopefully we can now set aside what great philanthropist we all are and put this behind us. I for one would like to be done with this subject.

 

[Canadave]

...You want one of my hats and you are member here? The new price is 450 bucks for the pure beaver. COW members will still get the 225.00 rate. I don't have to be a nice guy. Now, delete my membership please. Fedora

OK, I was with him right up until this point. Why would he punish FL members for the action of MK...an action that most seem to disagree with?

David

 

[clevispin]

MK

Be the man and the leader you are. Maybe this policy is a mistake, maybe not. Put a hold on it. Recognize the hurt some people are sincerely expressing. As the father of the FL be a good papa and take a breather on this. Reconsider, consult, contemplate. Show us how to be compassionate and humble.

My little guy (6) is a gregarious, good humored little Marc Chevalier
My daughter (12) is a neurotic pre-teen Deckard
And my middle son (10) is a pissy Fedora. But don't we love them all?

For all our foibles we are a family. Let's keep it that way.

You do whatever you have to do to keep this family together.

m

 

[Matt Deckard]

You pegged me.

Dead on!

MK

Be the man and the leader you are. Maybe this policy is a mistake, maybe not. Put a hold on it. Recognize the hurt some people are sincerely expressing. As the father of the FL be a good papa and take a breather on this. Reconsider, consult, contemplate. Show us how to be compassionate and humble.

My little guy (6) is a gregarious, good humored little Marc Chevalier
My daughter (12) is a neurotic pre-teen Deckard
And my middle son (10) is a pissy Fedora. But don't we love them all?

For all our foibles we are a family. Let's keep it that way.

You do whatever you have to do to keep this family together.

m

 

[Serial Hero]

MK

Be the man and the leader you are. Maybe this policy is a mistake, maybe not. Put a hold on it. Recognize the hurt some people are sincerely expressing. As the father of the FL be a good papa and take a breather on this. Reconsider, consult, contemplate. Show us how to be compassionate and humble.

My little guy (6) is a gregarious, good humored little Marc Chevalier
My daughter (12) is a neurotic pre-teen Deckard
And my middle son (10) is a pissy Fedora. But don't we love them all?

For all our foibles we are a family. Let's keep it that way.

You do whatever you have to do to keep this family together.

m

I guess that makes me the illegitimate son you never mention, and hope doesn’t just show up on your doorstep during Christmas dinner with your new family.

 

[Pilgrim]

And I'll be the weird uncle in the attic!

But it's still MK's baseball.

 

[Russ]

Why would he punish FL members for the action of MK...an action that most seem to disagree with?

Since COW membership is free and available to all, I think this is a symbolic gesture aimed at the Fedora Lounge as an institution and its policy makers -- not its members. I think it communicates Steve's point very effectively.

Even now no declared actions on this thread are irreversible -- only insulting words which cannot be recalled once they get out. (This is a general observation and not aimed at Canadadave, BTW)